Todd- Past midnight here. Got to go to bed. I would like to continue this discussion with you tommorrow. In the mean time I would like you to consider a couple of factors at work here. There are no commercial biodiesel vendors in the state of Alabama or Georgia that I am aware of. Also once something has been established its much more difficult to prohibit. I appreciate your comments much and have learned some things already.
Bill C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > Bill, > > While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonable > loophole in the matter, there remain several points of > contention. > > For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial > biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in which > the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff dollars > back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't > believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing > scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because the > state or municipality is road tax exempt? > > Consider the EPA's definition of "in commerce" as being on-road > use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such as > hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial > grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or not > and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned tractor > trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. > > Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt entities > have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. > There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing the > acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial interests. > > Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel producer > why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same > Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere > to....Same roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which > brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will at > some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. > > Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people > serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything worthwhile. > > Todd Swearingen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the > total time I > > have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that > they are > > exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My > question here > > is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel > if they > > produce it themselves and use it to operate their own > equipment? I make the > > assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be > no hazardous > > by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open > market are > > properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this > matter? > > > > Bill C. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel > for > > > their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may > apply. > > > And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing > > > their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for > the > > > IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of > road > > > taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - > > > presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the > > > arse on the matter. > > > > > > But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first > drop > > > for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy > access to > > > Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting > their > > > own studies or partnering with an entity that already has > legal > > > access to the data. > > > > > > That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And > pretty > > > much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily > move > > > into higher volumes of manufacture within their own > communities. > > > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils > have > > > put on paper. > > > > I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules > > > apply. Would > > > > appreciate directions to access that info (if available). > One > > > loophole I > > > > hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities > refine > > > their own > > > > fuel, not produce commercially. > > > > > > > > Bill C. > > > > > > > > .----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB > board > > > > > member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to > > > make a > > > > > loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in > order > > > to > > > > > accomodate micro-regional manufacture. > > > > > > > > > > Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. > But > > > that > > > > > certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this > point. > > > And > > > > > it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even if > they > > > > > wanted to, as the general rule in this country is "equal > > > > > protection under the law." > > > > > > > > > > Which also means equal enforcement, prosecution and > > > > > persecution.... meaning that the rules are to be applied > > > equally > > > > > to everyone and that exceptions are perceived as the > > > proverbial > > > > > pox - no matter how beneficial they prove. > > > > > > > > > > One can always hope. But if I were you, I would be > > > formulating a > > > > > backup plan well before I put all my eggs in that basket. > > > > > > > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:09 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken & others- First I would like to thank all of you > for > > > your > > > > > help & your > > > > > > prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to > > > describe > > > > > what I have > > > > > > in mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the missions we would like to undertake is to > > > > > demonstrate the > > > > > > effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local > community > > > and > > > > > government. > > > > > > The quality of my fuel is important. While energy > > > (electricity) > > > > > is cheap > > > > > > here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use > solar > > > as a > > > > > heat source > > > > > > when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in > a > > > pcv > > > > > pipe grid using > > > > > > the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to > UV. > > > Not > > > > > along term > > > > > > solution but will do for now. > > > > > > > > > > > > After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to > > > > > convince the City of > > > > > > Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO > > > produced > > > > > locally (not > > > > > > currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. > I > > > know > > > > > other cities > > > > > > in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as us > > > > > (15,000). Most > > > > > > biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to large > > > capacity > > > > > production or > > > > > > individual and farm production. Once we have coverted > our > > > own > > > > > city, we will > > > > > > try to convince other small communties in Alabama and > > > > > eventually the South > > > > > > East to do the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > Somebody recently made referrence to the EPA and their > > > > > discouragement of > > > > > > small biodiesel prodution in an e-mail on this list. I > am > > > > > unfamiliar with > > > > > > this but don't doubt it. Ron Dodson (neat guy and a > very > > > > > creative thinker) > > > > > > is the head of Audubon International. That is the group > we > > > are > > > > > doing this > > > > > > with. Ron also sits on the National Biodiesel Board. We > can > > > > > probably get > > > > > > some support for this idea through him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill C. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 6:43 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Next question. What problems might I encounter using > > > > > > > >anhydrous ethanol as opposed to methanol as a > reactant > > > > > > > >in this process? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe the first step involves mostly > esterification > > > but > > > > > also > > > > > > > some transesterification. I don't know how much > you're > > > > > > > relying on the glycerine to fall out of the reaction, > but > > > it > > > > > > > won't leave the solution as readily or as completely > when > > > > > > > ethanol is used. Also, you have to use more ethanol, > > > > > > > of course, since the molecular weight is greater than > for > > > > > > > methanol (ratio 46 to 32). If you want to continue > with > > > > > > > ethanol in the 2nd step, which is PURELY > > > transesterification, > > > > > > > the problem with the glycerine failing to separate > from > > > > > > > the biodiesel can become quite bothersome, > particularly > > > > > > > with any water in there, or free fatty acids above > 1%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > > > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages > to > > > the > > > > > list address. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! 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