It's beyond me why everyone wants to put so much emphasis on whether the
glyc cocktail is solid or not, or amber or pink with polka dots.
It's been said before that the primary constituent of that layer is soap. It
should surprise no one when soap solidifies. That generally means that the
oils/fats that comprised the feedstock were a high percentage saturated,
such as palm, coconut and tallow.
As for the pH of the fuel? That's a non-starter as far as indicating
reaction completion. Sure. It might be an indicator that some of the
original FFAs were pulled from the feedstock and are now soap in the glyc
cocktail layer. But it's not of any value as an indication of a complete
reaction.
Remove 250 ml of what you think is fuel. Retreat it with the standard rate
of caustic and alcohol. Sit back and watch as more glyc drops.
The fact that you're getting an emulsion that won't break upon washing
should be your first hint that the reaction didn't complete. "Shiny" and/or
"beautiful" are not indicators of completed reactions. Adjectives of
emotional "satisfaction," but not reaction completion.
Todd Swearingen
----- Original Message -----
From: "bioveging" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 5:07 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: washing biodiesel in large processor
> Well, it must be some other problem then as I let it settle for about
> 24 hours and at times the glycerine is almost solid when I decant the
> BD. Maybe it's the oil samples I have been using, perkaps I shall give
> it a go with another source feed and see what develops (hopefully good
> BD).
> The PH I was refering to was not the water but the "finished" BD being
> at 7.0 or slightly one way or the other(.2+/-) from neutral. From what
> I remember that issupposed to be good fuel, but now I aain't too sure
> due to this emulsion thing.
> Evrything else seems OK, the titration works well, although the oil
> never completely disolves to clear in the ISopropyl even though I run
> a hot water bath under it through the whole process, and stir
> faithfully all the way and every time I add a drop of the 1% solution.
> I gotta be doing something not right, but then "what" is the question
> ain't it?
> The NaOH is measured via electronic scale, the iso and methanol are
> measured via graded lab grade tubes, the methoxide is well disolved
> via my Grolsch bottle mixer before I add it. I get clear and distinct
> seperation within 30 minutes with a dark layer on the bottom and a
> lighter layer on top of that, no other layers. Then I take out 150ml
> each of unwashed BD and water and shake rattle and roll for about 10
> seconds and get emulsion that won't break, even after a day, so if I
> take the same stuff, gently wash it the first time, then replace the
> water and wash it again more vigorously and repeat a coupl more times
> and let settle (air dry) I get a very beautiful shiny product, but now
> it seems that it ain't necessarily so, so I got to figure what it is
> that I am not doing right if this is the acid test for BD then I have
> failed miserably in spite of all the other indicators being good.
>
> L.
>
> --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Ok, now I am confused. If I were to take the clear water pump for
> > > mixing the reaction with and plumb it to circulate the wash, or use
> > > another similar pump to do that I end up with better fuel ?
> >
> > No. The fuel will only be as good as you make it prior to washing (to be
> > read "complete or incomplete reaction").
> >
> > What I said was that mechanical agitation can put more
> fuel/impurities in
> > contact with more water more quickly than other wash methods, in turn
> > lending to a better washed finished product. A vigorous pump that
> can keep
> > the contents thoroughly mixed can effectively achieve the same thing
> a prop
> > and motor (which is what a pump essentially is)
> >
> > The problem you're having with the wash test may be due to failing
> to let
> > the glycerin cocktail settle out fully. You can't rush batch
> production of
> > biodiesel. Let the reaction settle 12-24 hours before decanting off
> the fuel
> > and attempting to wash. If you're still getting emulsions, the
> problem stems
> > from less than complete reactions, not the vigorousness of the
> agitation.
> >
> > The beauty of the "frog in a blender" sample wash test is that there
> are no
> > variables as there are in chemical/pH testing. Either the fuel
> separates,
> > indicating reaction completion, or it hesitates, or it doesn't separate
> > properly at all.
> >
> > Also, you will find that the pH of your wash water or finished fuel
> means
> > essentially nothing relative to the simple agitation test. Fresh
> water can
> > vary in pH from house to house and faucet to faucet - which also
> means that
> > final wash water can vary as well. You cannot expect that a specific
> > finished pH number indicates a perfectly washed fuel.
> >
> > Chemical/pH testing only adds confusion - unle
> >
> > Todd Swearingen
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "bioveging" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 8:25 AM
> > Subject: [biofuel] Re: washing biodiesel in large processor
> >
> >
> > > Ok, now I am confused. If I were to take the clear water pump for
> > > mixing the reaction with and plumb it to circulate the wash, or use
> > > another similar pump to do that I end up with better fuel ?
> > > Whenever I have done the "quality test" after having followed the
> > > procedure to the letter I always get emultion that takes some time to
> > > clarify and sometimes it doesn't at all, but then by gently washing it
> > > a few times, each time more vigorous I end up with a nice sparkly
> > > amber "clear" fuel which PH's to 7-7.2 (neutral) so I now don't
> get it.
> > > I don't want to go into full batch production (in a couple weeks) and
> > > find out that I am making crappy fuel if I can develop a better way
> > > beforehand, so is not the end result the same if the ph and other
> > > elements match the descriptions given about making BD at home?
> > > I have tried phenolphthaline and it did NOTHING, I tried ph strips and
> > > got 7 on everything I tested them on, so again NOTHING, so I am
> > > sticking with an electronic PH meter which does seem to work well in
> > > the titration stage and for measuring the final PH of the end product.
> > >
> > > Any (more) thoughts?
> > >
> > > L.
> > >
> > > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Ardis,
> > > >
> > > > You will find, after enough experimentation and out of pocket costs,
> > > that
> > > > mechanical agitation in a wash tank is the least expensive,
> consumes the
> > > > least energy, requires the least amount of time and leaves you
> with a
> > > > finished product as good as or better than mist- or bubble-washing.
> > > >
> > > > Plain, pure and simple, mist- and bubble-washing have become
> > > > "institutionalized" amongst home-brewers primarily due to the
> > > frequency of
> > > > incomplete reactions that lend to washing problems. In short, they
> > > are both
> > > > methods of treating incomplete reactions with little kid's
> gloves in the
> > > > hopes that any resulting emulsion won't be "too bad" or "too
> > > noticeable."
> > > >
> > > > The fact of the matter is that no wash method should be used on any
> > > batch
> > > > unless it is known for certain that the reaction has completed.
> > > > Unfortunately, many people fail to guarantee this for themselves,
> > > opting to
> > > > just "go ahead and wash it gently."
> > > >
> > > > The method of guarantee is extremely simple. Put one ounce of
> what is
> > > > believed to be finished fuel in a baby food jar (or similar) with an
> > > equal
> > > > amount of water. Seal the jar and shake violently for 15 seconds.
> > > Completed
> > > > fuel should begin to separate instantly and there should be two
> distinct
> > > > layers in less than ~30 seconds. If it takes longer than this or
> if an
> > > > emulsion layer forms any thicker than the normal "paper thin"
> interface
> > > > layer between oil and water, you've got a batch that has not
> completed.
> > > >
> > > > The degree of incompletion can vary. If the fuel/water separate
> > > slowly but
> > > > are by-and-large complete in a matter of 1-2 minutes and there is no
> > > > emulsion layer other than the interface, there's no great need to
> > > retreat
> > > > the reaction if the fuel is intended for personal use. If you
> have an
> > > > emulsion beyond the thin interface layer the batch needs to be
> > > retreated. No
> > > > amount of light mist- or bubble-washing can change this - unless, of
> > > course,
> > > > you don't care what grade of fuel you run through your engine.
> > > >
> > > > The wash test and mechanical washing (motor, prop and shaft) work
> > > well no
> > > > matter what method you use - acid/base or straight base, single or
> > > double
> > > > stage.
> > > >
> > > > Some concern has been expressed in the past over the use of air to
> > > dry fuel,
> > > > the concern being fuel oxidation. It's beyond me why those who
> > > express such
> > > > concern (and rightfully so) don't say word one about bubble washing
> > > doing
> > > > the exact same thing.
> > > >
> > > > Others express concern with pump- or prop-washed fuel not
> clearing as
> > > > quickly as mist- or bubble-washed. There's sound reason for this,
> > > all things
> > > > being equal. Pumps and propellers have the ability of better mixing
> > > the fuel
> > > > and water ("atomizing it"), bringing both in more frequent contact
> > > with each
> > > > other. This means greater surface to surface contact between water
> > > molecules
> > > > and all suspended/dissolved impurities. Fifteen minutes with a 1/2
> > > hp motor
> > > > and 4" - 6" prop in a 200 gallon wash tank or bigger will achieve
> > > the same
> > > > thing or more as an all-day-affair with a mist- or
> bubble-washer. This
> > > > allows for hours of washing time to be converted to settling time,
> > > in turn
> > > > hastening the entire wash process.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, when all is said and done and no matter what wash method you
> > > choose,
> > > > you'll best serve your own interests if you make sure that your
> > > reaction is
> > > > complete before attempting any type of wash. All bubble- and
> > > mist-washing
> > > > tend to do is offer brewers the opportunity to wash an incompletely
> > > reacted
> > > > batch with one eye closed and sometimes the other eye squinted.
> > > >
> > > > Todd Swearingen
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "ardis streeter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:29 PM
> > > > Subject: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,all ' I was wondering if anyone could tell me
> > > > > which way might be best for washing large batches of
> > > > > biodiesel??My processor is capable of processing up to
> > > > > 200 gallons at a time.I am still building the
> > > > > processor so I was looking for some imfo.from
> > > > > experenced biodiesel producers.So far I have the
> > > > > stainless pick up tank done,the methanol,lye mix tank
> > > > > done,the processing tank with heat exchangers and
> > > > > mixer done.Currently I am building the wash tank and
> > > > > was wondering if bubble washing or top mist washing
> > > > > would be better for a tank that is 46 inches in dia.
> > > > > and aprox. 90 inches high.The tank will hold aprox.
> > > > > 480 gallons.Also was wondering if the tank needs an
> > > > > agitoror or if the wash tank should be set up with a
> > > > > pump to stir the fuel,water wash?? Also would like to
> > > > > know if the wash water should be pre-heated because
> > > > > well water is around 55 degrees,would this cause a
> > > > > problem with proper washing.Thanks for any help||
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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