Hi Keith, Alecs does qualify that in his recipe's. He means that the process reaches an equilbrium before all of the oil is converted. In theory you can never get to 100% conversion to ester etc. He also hates to not convert the FFA to ester. While I agree it's wasteful to dump the FFA, I'm not convinced FFA can make DIN 51606 standard ester. Clean FFA can be used in blends for low speed site plant or heavy oil generator engines.
That said, Energea use an acid pre-reaction for >8% FFA feedstock and they deliver DIN standard fuel, so it can be done. I'd like to compare calorific values (per litre) of ester from high FFA feedstock and new oil. A single stage (base) reaction with new oil might make biodiesel which is less than 2.5% oil, but 10% unreacted oil is more likely especially with RVO. Reacting in 2 stages gives a good chance that the ester is more or less fully converted. You react with 2/3 of your methoxide and allow it to settle. Then draw off the byproducts and react again with the remaining methoxide. This polishes the ester. Shorthand is base/base process. I think Energea plants do three reactions to make absolutely sure they are within the standard. Unused methanol is recovered so there's no waste. When I followed Aleks Kak's "Foolproof Process" my waste oil was not as overcooked as he uses so I needed to do two base reactions. It was really an acid/base/base. Incidentally, our Ace Biodieseler friend from Manchester has managed to reuse the stage 2 byproduct as part of another batch, indicating that his first stage came fairly close to full conversion. [Camillo I'm not suggesting that's OK for commercial operators :) ] What a shame he's not got a personal Gas Chromatograph. He could move small scale techniques forward no-end. Regards, Dave --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Dave > You mentioned biodiesel you made with "the normal base/base process", which, according to your results with it, Aleks says is sloppy biodiesel. I don't know what the normal base/base process might be. Which process did you use exactly? > > Best > > Keith Addison > > >Camillo, > >That news about poor quality German biodiesel and VW is depressing > >indeed. It's exactly what UK doesn't need. We want to be in > >production as soon as possible after next April, but if even VW have > >doubts we'll have even less chance of finding business investors. > > > >Can we not persuade VW to warrant it's cars for DIN 51606 fuel and > >nothing less? They are well placed to publicise the quailty issue and > >to promote decent biofuel. Can recognised German and Austrian > >biodesel professionals not visit them to discuss. > > > >My point about separating potentially lower quality esters was just > >to avoid this issue. Sub DIN 51606 ester has a market, but not at the > >pumps and it should never be corroding/clogging engines. > > > >I agree that to confirm or deny my experiences with various "home > >brews" you would need to run controlled tests and use a properly > >equipped laboratory. I'd hoped to convey that point. > > > >I am still concerned though. If the different esterification process > >really do produce different calorific values we have a commercial > >problem. My crude "tests" indicates this might be so. Does anybody > >know of any studies which bear out my experience? > > > >Dave > > > >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Camillo Holecek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >wrote: > > > May I add my two cents, too? > > > > > > Here we reach the limit of what could be done without proper > >analysis of our > > > products = homemade biodiesel. To clarify such subtleties like the > > > difference on what you call base/base and acid/base, you can not do > >without > > > giving that stuff to a laboratory who is equiped and certified to > >do DIN > > > standard testing. Yes, that may be something like 100U$ per sample. > >No, > > > there is no other way, unless you call a gas chromatography kit and > >all the > > > other testing equipment you own ;-) > > > > > > Only then can you KNOW if you have mono/di/triglycerides left in > >your brew, > > > or potasium, or soap, or acid (!) or phosphor, or whatever. What do > >you > > > think, why the DIN standard consists of more then 30 different > >chemical and > > > physical parameters? > > > > > > Quality is CRUCIAL in our industry. Some clever, self appointed, > >german > > > biodiesel makers have managed to ruin the reputation of BD so much, > >that it > > > appeares possible that even VW will bring out it's 2002 models > >WITHOUT BD > > > approval in protest of the widespread poor quality biodiesel found > >at german > > > pumping stations (poor means of course also way below DIN 51606 > >quality > > > standards). > > > > > > Camillo Holecek > > > > > > > > > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > > > Von: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > m > > > [mailto:sentto-3381553-178-993619357- > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > elist.com]Im Auftrag von Keith Addison > > > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Juni 2001 07:31 > > > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Betreff: [biofuels-biz] Re: Bio- vs. Palm Oil? > > > > > > >On fuel quality we have to be "whiter than white" and be seen to be > > > >so. > > > > > > > >Dave > > > > > > Hi Dave > > > > > > Indeed yes. You raised some previous questions about quality. > > > > > > >High FFA fats can be acid esterified - see Alecs Kak's recipe on > > > >www.journeytoforever.org. However, I would add that you do need to > > > >titrate. High levels of FFA need longer in the acid stage so how > >long > > > >is enough if you don't know the FFA content. > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > >I'm not convinced the calorific value is as good as plain base > > > >reacted ester so would appreciate what you find out on that. > > > > > > Also: > > > > > > >I have tested some ester made using the acid/base/base process. It > > > >worked fine and I got less byproduct than when I use the normal > > > >base/base process. However, on base/base ester, my car's fuel trip > > > >computer will register about 44 mpg after about 5 miles of 70mph > > > >driving. > > > > > > > >With the acid/base product it would struggle to 40mpg under the > >same > > > >conditions. Yesterday I added 4 gals of base/base to the tank which > > > >already contained about 4 gals of acid/base fuel. Within 5 miles, > >my > > > >trip computer was showing 44mpg and rising. This is the second > >time I > > > >have had this result, so it's not a oneoff event. > > > > > > > >We need to be careful. If we try to sell acid/base fuel as being > >the > > > >same as base/base fuel then we have to be sure it really IS the > >same. > > > > > > > >I'm sure my acid reacted fuel lost something - oxygens maybe? Is it > > > >simply stripping the glycerols from FFA, leaving the FFA to mix in > > > >with the ester made by the base reaction process? This could > >explain > > > >the low calorific value. > > > > > > > >Proper research is needed on this question. > > > > > > I forwarded this to Aleks. Here's his response. > > > > > > "Biodiesel has a lower calorific value per litre than triglics mixes > > > (oil/fat). If he does make more mpg on base bio, this means that he > > > is driving on something else than methyl esters. I presume that this > > > would be a mix of methyl/mono-/di-/(possible tri-) glcerids. That's > > > called sloppy biodiesel. True, it packs more carbon into the > > > cylinders, but it also emits acroleins. I'm (almost) ashamed to > >say : > > > I use it (offroad). It > > > really packs more power because it has a higher density. On the > >other > > > hand, I can > > > see my exhaust fumes and this isn't quite good. > > > > > > "Re titration - determinig exact reaction time is a pain because ffa > > > levels vary wildly. I established two categories: > > > 1. up to heavily used liquid fat and medium used solid fat : 1.75 > >hrs > > > 2. more than medium used solid fat and up : 2.25 hrs > > > Longer reaction times just cost time and energy. You get a little > > > better results, but the price is high." > > > > > > Best > > > > > > Keith Addison > > > > > > > > > Biofuels at Journey to Forever > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > Biofuel at WebConX > > > http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > >Biofuels at Journey to Forever > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuel at WebConX > >http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! 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