Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hakan Falk
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 4:28 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
Tim,
I will clarify and repeat.
At 15:57 15/08/2005, you wrote:
>Hakan,
>
>What you are saying then is "foreign aid" does
>not necessarily fit the definition of foreign
>entanglement? Further, even if it did, that type of entanglement is OK?
Complicated matter for US, but there are more
successful countries, look at them.
>You are right about the demand side of illicit
>drugs. I was referring to the supply
>side. Another Country just simply cannot supply
>drugs regardless of demand or legalities. That spells trouble.
No country supply the drugs, there are criminals
in the countries that do it. US have a high
degree of cooperation on those issues, on matters
that are illegal both in US and the other country.
>Are you saying that if a foreign country doesn't
>agree with our laws, they are not obligated to
>cooperate with us, unless there is something in it for them?
Exactly, US cannot expect that an other country
should police unique US laws on their soil. This
is so basic that it should be easy to understand.
That is why I took the legal age for sex as
example. Sweden who has an age limit of 15 years
for agreed sex, cannot be expected to police the
21 year limit in US. That means that they cannot
arrest and extradite someone who had sex with a
17 year in US, since it is not recognized as a crime in Sweden.
Many countries who do not have death penalty,
cannot extradite a killer to US, if US does not
guarantee that the death penalty will not be applied.
>I was referring to a broader definition of
>counterfeiting than just currency such as that
>pertaining to intellectual property. For
>instance, I read and hear much about Chinese
>illegal copying of software, music, movies, clothing, etc.
Intellectual properties are complicated and even
the Chinese will take action for things, within
their laws. They do pursue software coping for
export and maybe you will not agree, but they can
even apply death penalty for cases that they
unravel. Many brand products are manufactured in
China and it is in many cases stolen legal production that are sold in China.
US demands are in many cases more of a wish that
the world should respect their registers for
patent, brand names, logos, designs etc., but I
have not yet seen that they offer a similar hard
recognition for other countries registers.
It becomes even more complicated when you look at
paten protection, that are shorter in US than
many other countries. In this cases you will see
patents used in US, even if they are valid in
other countries. US have for many years played a
similar role as China in the field of patents. It
never helped that the European countries
complained, but now when US have a film and music
industry to protect, the table is turned. What is
the difference between a unique technical
solution and a sequence of notes? If you have to
register a patent in US, to protect a technical
solution, similar registration should also be
required for US intellectual properties in other
countries. US get much more protection for their
unregistered intellectual properties, that they
give for the unregistered thought process for technical solutions.
It is very complicated and US is cherry picking
on subjects that give them benefits and disregard what they want.
Hakan
>Tim
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hakan Falk
>Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 4:27 AM
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
>
>
>Tim,
>
>There are many of the top 20 industrialized who,
>per capita, give more foreign aid than US. The
>fact is that the most of them do. This both in
>percentage of GDP and in absolute numbers. Most
>of them have a behavior of quite high standard
>and without corruptive and reciprocal rules. They
>are not avoiding foreign entanglement, on the
>contrary. I suggest that US look closer to those and learn.
>
>Drug-trafficking is a problem that starts with
>the demand and the definitions. The demand is a
>social problem, not a criminal. With a targeted
>and reality based legislation, a lot will
>disappear. I must be something very wrong, with a
>country that have 21 years as legal sexual age,
>which make most Americans criminals already when
>they start their adult life. Laws should be
>reasonable, adopted to realities and regarded as
>fair by the majority, then it will be anchored
>and followed by most of the population.
>
>The laws of any country are the concerns of that
>country and is only when laws are matching
>between countries, that cooperation can be
>established. To help with an other country's
>immigration, laws about leaving a country must be
>established and emigration can be controlled. Any
>country who establish laws about the rights to
>leave the country, will be branded as suppressive
>by US and might be invaded by US (subject to sufficient oil reserves). LOL
>
>Counterfeiting is an area with intensive
>international cooperation and your complain is
>baseless. It does not matter where he $´s are
>produced, it is criminal. US $ and Euro are
>attractive money, but US currency is far easier to counterfeit.
>
>Hakan
>
>
>
>At 05:34 15/08/2005, you wrote:
> >Hakan,
> >
> >Yes, that is quite immoral to export our dirty
> >work much less support oppresive regimes for any
> >reason. My question is how can we avoid foreign
> >entanglements, regardless of methods, without
> >being completely discompassionate? At the same
> >time if we refrain from taking advantage of
> >foreign sub-standards and lenient laws, they
> >should help us enforce our laws such as
> >immigration, drug-trafficing and counterfeiting.
> >
> >Tim
> >
> >________________________________
> >
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Hakan Falk
> >Sent: Sun 8/14/2005 5:13 AM
> >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Tim,
> >
> >This is not really the question form and maybe many others. It is not
> >the question of that US is engaged, it is the way US does it and
> >traditionally did it. It is immoral to support activities by their
> >corporations, that are not up to their standards and laws for US at
> >home. It is not morally justifiable to support oppressive regimes, in
> >order to support US financial interests. We can only mention The Shah
> >of Iran, Pinochet, Saddam Hussein, etc. as a few of a long list that
> >were helped to power and then maintained by US.
> >
> >Iraq is the result of a misunderstanding, Saddam Hussein asked for
> >the US permission to invade Kuweit and thought that he got it.
> >
> >
> >
> >Hakan
> >
> >At 02:45 14/08/2005, you wrote:
> > >There seems to be general agreement on this list that the U.S.
> > >should avoid "foreign entanglements," at least when it comes to some
> > >of the uglier tenets of foreign policy. Shouldn't we be just as
> > >concerned about so called benevolent tenets as well? Even feeding
> > >and clothing the oppressed will upset the oppressors. Perhaps what
> > >a "foreign entanglement" refers to is a personal decision driven by
> > >that person's views toward any one particular governmental involvement?
> > >
> > >Tim Schlueter
> > >St. Louis
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > >
> > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of
> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Sent: Fri 8/12/2005 11:45 PM
> > >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
> > >
> > >
> > >Mike,
> > >
> > >Where do I start?
> > >
> > >First, I have a real problem with any government (U.S., state,
> > >local) taking my hard earned money (in the form of taxes) and
> > >redistributing it to others. Now, there are legitimate things that
> > >each of these levels of government can spend taxpayer dollars on,
> > >namely, those outlined in their constitution or charter. In the
> > >case of the U.S. Government, these include national defense (not
> > >necessarily offense, though), minting currency, postal services,
> > >etc. When the U.S. Government (or perhaps the state governments)
> > >start spending my money outside the bounds of the Constitution, it
> > >is no longer legit. I would like to see Congress try and pass an
> > >Amendment to allow giving loans to foreign nations and never
> > >expecting repayment of those loans. How much support do you think
> > >they would get from the populace?
> > >
> > >Second, some people may consider giving funds or supplies to help
> > >poorer nations or refugee groups as charity, which it is. But
> > >charity is you or I freely donating my money to others for the
> > >purpose of helping those in need. I have given money to help
> > >victims of 9-11, I have helped feed the homeless in soup kitchens, I
> > >have given my old clothing and furniture to Goodwill, Salvation
> > >Army, etc. Governments, such as our federal government, do not own
> > >the money they give to others - the money belongs to the taxpayers
> > >(and bond holders) who provide the money. How can the U.S.
> > >Government consider giving money to poor African countries as
> > >charity, when it isn't their money to give? As I mentioned
> > >previously, if the U.S. Government would stop taking my hard earned
> > >money and "donating" away, perhaps I would have more money that I
> > >could freely give to organizations like the Red Cross (this is only
> > >one example, there are others) as charity.
> > >
> > >Third, the idea of giving for the sake of giving is lost on most
> > >politicians. Inside the "Beltway," a politician's power is measured
> > >by his or her ability to fundraise - accepting money from some
> > >"generous" sole to support some "Cause of the day." Have you ever
> > >met a political donor that didn't expect something in return? The
> > >President and Congress are just as guilty of wanting something in
> > >return for helping other nations. How much money have they pumped
> > >into the poorer nations of the Iraq War Coalition?
> > >
> > >Socialism and true communism may have its value to some and will
> > >thrive in some places of the world, but I prefer not to live under
> > >it. Or at least, if I have to, please call it as such - The
> > >Socialist Unoin of America.
> > >
> > >The same goes for the United Nations.
> > >
> > >Thanks for the opportunity to explain myself.
> > >
> > >Earl.
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: Michael Redler <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:35 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
> > >
> > >
> > > Earl,
> > >
> > > Earl wrote: "It seems to me that be requiring wealthy
> > > nations to "donate" any portion of
> > > their GDP is just another form of socialism, except on a
> > > global scale."
> > >
> > > Giving it a name (i.e. socialism or ...ism), doesn't
> > > explain why you disagree. Please include
> > something to support your position.
> > >
> > > There are people in this list who (despite McCarthy's
> > > legacy) understand the value of socialism and even communism (not
> > > to be confused with Stalin's mislabeled brand of fascism) as a
> > > theoretical model for democracy.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > >
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > > Sent: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:48:58 -0300
> > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
> > >
> > > Dale,
> > >
> > > I don't mean to deflate your dream, but why do we need the
> > > government
> > > beauracracy (of which the UN most certainly is) to
> > > guarranty these basic
> > > human rights? Shouldn't that be the responsibility of every
> > > person on the
> > > planet to protect his or her basic rights?
> > >
> > > It seems to me that be requiring wealthy nations to
> > > "donate" any portion of
> > > their GDP is just another form of socialism, except on a
> > > global scale.
> > >
> > > Your other point about not getting involved with those
> > > poorer nations is
> > > right on the money. The biggest terrorism problems in the
> > > US today are a
> > > direct result of our meddling in other nations' affairs. If
> > > we spent less
> > > time and money on controlling other countries, we could
> > > spend less time and
> > > money on counter terrorism measures. Maybe then my taxes
> > > will go down and I
> > > would be able to donate my own money to those poorer
> > > nations. But that, my
> > > friend, is truly just a dream.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Earl Kinsley
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > ----------------------------------
> > > "That government is best which governs least." -- Thomas Paine
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz
list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz
list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
_______________________________________________
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
_______________________________________________
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
