> So who is Edwin trying to kid? Maybe, just maybe, he's not entirely aware of how relative the poverty income rate is in various regions. (A point to which you elude later in your reply.)
100 Euros isn't exactly the wealth of Fort Knox ($122 US), although it remains a relative matter. I rather doubt that it would cost any more than a Northern Tool, one inch, clear water pump at some point in time if it were manufactured at scale. That's about 1/3 of the present asking price of 100 Euros. Not exactly the Bloomingdale price of a Tabbypressen. > But Edwin wants it for nothing. All right. So what is it of fair exchange that you would seek in return? >Isn't it Edwin who's saying "Hey brother. What's > mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't > have anything can I have whatever you've got?" Not exactly. It's rather apparent that he brings something to the table, having put a fair amount of his own time and effort into the extruder. A Drainbow would sit back and watch while another put forward all their efforts, then swoop in and start to enjoy the fruit before the laborer had even tamped the sweat off his brow. > He won't even offer what he does have - the plans. Well? I don't either relative to the 833 gallon plant. People who aren't bright enough to figure out that design shouldn't be making biodiesel in the first place. And people who won't figure it out? A large percentage of them are interested in it from the Drainbow profit motive - let everyone else do the groundwork. Laziness seems to accompany a lot of people looking for profit. So perhaps it's somewhat fair to extrapolate from personal experience why Edwin shouldn't necessarily make detailed drawings open source, at least not until he's comfortable with doing so. 1) It's rather doubtful that those who can't afford a 100 Eu asking price could afford to construct a prototype on their own even if they had the drawings. 2) If the drawings were out there, China-Mart or India-Mart or perhaps Wal-Mart would be the first to manufacture at scale and take full disadvantage of the open source availability. Others do the ground work and they play the role of Drainbow. If they really want to make a buck, let them steal it a little more honestly. > If you really want to say the "open source" doctrine > is usually just a drain of energies that leaves a > person's wallet thinner Nope. But here can be times when open source is appropriate and others when it may take a while to get there. > Edwin raises mushrooms in Holland, a country with little soil to call > its own. As it turns out that doesn't matter too much to the Dutch, > because it's a rich country. I'm not picking on them, we're all in > the same boat, and what the hell I'm about a quarter Dutch myself > anyway, I've lived there, I liked it, I'd go back. However, as with > all the rich countries, there is an area of land totalling five > times the size of Holland scattered about the world among prime > growing areas in various 3rd World countries which is devoted > exclusively to raising feed for Dutch cattle, at preferential prices > for the Dutch, who then use their own soil to push up tulips and > stuff, that being more profitable. Pity about all those hungry people > who'd be growing food for themselves and their communities on that > prime 3rd World land if it weren't for the tulips and so on. Why not > set the fair return you say Edwin deserves on his investment against > that backdrop and see how fair it really is? *They* owe *him* 100 > Euros? Whatchu trying to do Keith? Usurp Barry Commoner's coach seat on the principles bandwagon? Should it be presumed that you managed to point this perspective out to Edwin in the off-list correspondence? Okay. I stuck my two Euros in and just burned up a half-hour of both our time. Well, maybe not incinerated. Revisiting the international practice of trade inequity with that dutchy thought was quite worth the time. As for the extruder? I could easily see it being affordable to the middle to upper end of the First (and only) World right out of the chute, certainly no more expensive than the cheap juicers and blenders found on Mal-Wart's bridle registry. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: >All quite true Todd, as far as it goes. > >But there's a gap between what Edwin says he wants to achieve and >what he says his goals are. As he states it, his primary goal isn't >to make loadsamoney, it's to benefit very poor people, and why >shouldn't he get a return on his investment in the doing? > >Sounds fair enough at first glance, but it just won't work that way >because it'd be crazy to think very poor people could ever afford the >price he's charging - about four times the cost of the thing, >according to Jason's estimate, probably not far wrong. How many years >will it take someone in the rural hinterlands of Burkino Faso to earn >100 Euros? That's the privileged guy, the others live right outside >the money economy, and those are the ones Edwin says he wants to help. > >Where's the sense in marketing a life-saving widget on the Internet >when those whose lives you're trying to save could never afford it, >have never seen a computer, and have no access to any market anyway? > >Edwin has to be aware of that gap, but he hasn't tried to make any >alternative arrangements to bridge it. I outlined a couple of things >he could try, Jason just described another, but not Edwin. > >So who is Edwin trying to kid? His oil press has no way of reaching >the people he says it'll help. The best way to mend that small >problem is to release the design, and that doesn't have to mean he's >throwing his investment away. > >Another way might be to try to get someone like me, with our website >and its credibility among the kind of people who access it, to get >all involved and enthusiastic and, essentially, endorse his product >for him, yawning gap and all. In the commercial world that would be a >valuable endorsement. But Edwin wants it for nothing. > >Isn't it Edwin who's saying "Hey brother. What's mine is yours and >yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever >you've got?" > >He won't even offer what he does have - the plans. > >I don't buy it. > >I'm not saying he's just waving the flag of helping hungry people as >a sales gimmick, but I can't say he's not doing that either. >Whichever, it's not quite the same as this: > > > >>A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not >>unreasonable to seek it. >> >> > >A lot of what he says is just wrong. He doesn't seem to have put a >lot of thought or research into the true situation of the people he >says he wants to help. > >IMHO Edwin has little credibility unless he moves into Open Sourcing >his design. Then I might help him, but I'd have to check it out for >myself first. I'd do that by giving it to the list. > >Todd, with you it's just that one processor page, when you get one of >those I-want I-want I-want's I'll bet I get 10 of them, day after >day, and yes it gets old soon. The first message this morning: > >"I am Intrested in opening a plant for Bio-Diesel in UK or Pakistan >because of the very cheap labour and supply to UK because of the high >demand. How shall i proceed about opening bio diesel plant. Send me >full information as soon as possible." > >A lot of different people with different interests will settle for >nothing less: "Drop all the rest of your pressing affairs and devote >your attention to ME." Very often they're outright money-making >schemes but you don't even get offered a cut, you're going to do it >all for love because you're such a mug or you wouldn't be giving all >that valuable information away for free on your website. > >So what, what's it matter? Such pesky squeakings have little bearing >on all the genuine enquiries from real people who don't just ask, so >often they offer as well, they want to share, not just take. "Give to >givers, take from takers." It's no problem seeing which is which. In >fact it's easier than that, there's no need to take any notice of >selfish, grasping people at all, just ignore them. > >If you really want to say the "open source" doctrine is usually just >a drain of energies that leaves a person's wallet thinner then I have >to say that there's a large amount of rather solid data to hand which >blows that argument right out of the water. But I don't think you >really want to say that. > >There's another issue here, in this particular case, which doesn't >apply to your processor example, or not much. When rich people want >to help poor people it just won't come adrift from the economic >relationships between the two. Yes, Edwin is rich. Anyone with a >computer and Internet access is automatically among the very >privileged of the world. > >Edwin raises mushrooms in Holland, a country with little soil to call >its own. As it turns out that doesn't matter too much to the Dutch, >because it's a rich country. I'm not picking on them, we're all in >the same boat, and what the hell I'm about a quarter Dutch myself >anyway, I've lived there, I liked it, I'd go back. However, as with >all the rich countries, there is an area of land totalling five >times the size of Holland scattered about the world among prime >growing areas in various 3rd World countries which is devoted >exclusively to raising feed for Dutch cattle, at preferential prices >for the Dutch, who then use their own soil to push up tulips and >stuff, that being more profitable. Pity about all those hungry people >who'd be growing food for themselves and their communities on that >prime 3rd World land if it weren't for the tulips and so on. Why not >set the fair return you say Edwin deserves on his investment against >that backdrop and see how fair it really is? *They* owe *him* 100 >Euros? > >Just speaking for myself, from my own experience of it, a >long-ongoing daily matter, never mind the me-me-me's who'd like to >leave your wallet thinner, what concerns most people in this >situation is **how can they give something back**. > >Is that what Edwin is trying to do? You'd bet on it? > >No Todd, I don't agree with you this time. I think you're comparing >apples and oranges. > >Edwin might get my attention and maybe even a dram of enthusiasm when >the plans arrive, not before. > >If in the course of this discussion I seem to have painted him as a >cynical manipulator of the less fortunate that's not my intention and >it's not what I believe. I think he's just being thoughtless and >seeing what he wants to see. I'd happily share a coffee and lemon >meringue pie with Edwin, much more so than with people who flog >Diesel Secrets or FuelMeisters. > >All best > >Keith > > > > > >>Sellout? >> >>Someone who wants to take a worthwhile mechanism and make a fair return >>on his efforts is more probable. >> >>Not everyone is into or can afford to live their life by the "open >>source" doctrine. Usually doing so just means that the masses drain the >>majority of your energies, you have an even thinner wallet, less time >>for yourself then ever before and your creditors pounding even louder at >>the door. >> >>A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not >>unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough >>form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally >>demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - >>obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed >>so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were >>truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance >>their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and >>selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. >> >>Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The >>former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter >>operates under the principle of "Hey brother. What's mine is yours and >>yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever >>you've got?" >> >>Gets old real quick And I didn't exactly see anything at his sight or in >>his letter that leads a person to believe that he's either a profiteer >>or someone who isn't willing to help others, even if the latter seems to >>be through the corridors of "normal commerce." >> >>Todd Swearingen >> >> >> >>Jason & Katie wrote: >> >> >> >>>Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal >>>does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt >>>realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, >>>he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his >>>money back, he needs to step up R&D and make more COMMERCIALLY viable >>>variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself. >>> >>>(Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it >>>, keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any >>>way.) >>> >>>--- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>>Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hi all >>>> >>>>The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in >>>>the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the >>>>discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages >>>>in archives. >>>> >>>>I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want >>>>to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could >>>>discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. >>>> >>>>I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil >>>>press. >>>> >>>>But I haven't heard from him again. >>>> >>>>Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I >>>>shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it >>>>anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can >>>>change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. >>>> >>>>He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't >>>>addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting >>>>back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks >>>>the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on >>>>a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate >>>>Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free >>>>online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg >>>>Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free >>>>online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a >>>>staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on >>>>selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can >>>>put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways. >>>> >>>>In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting >>>>oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial >>>>revolution. >>>> >>>>The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform >>>>including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new >>>>one. For instance, in a different thread at the same time >>>>Pannirselvam mentioned this: >>>> >>>>"we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so >>>>simple to make , now processing coconut , getting good resutls , >>>>future the sunflower and also the castor oil " >>>> >>>>I don't think very much of Edwin's case for giving the poorest a >>>>future. I'm not persuaded to help him sell his oil press. >>>> >>>>Here's his email, below. >>>> >>>>Best >>>> >>>>Keith >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Dear Keith, >>>>>> >>>>>>I read your discussion about the Piteba oil press in the forum. I >>>>>>am glad you are so involved and enthusiastic about the idea of a >>>>>>small press. >>>>>> >>>>>>I understand that you have many questions on the press. First let >>>>>>me explain what Piteba is and why I developed the Piteba oil press. >>>>>>I hope you will see opportunities to support me in trying to sell >>>>>>the press in as many countries as possible and in that way give the >>>>>>poorest a future. >>>>>> >>>>>>I have a small company in the mushroom business which I grounded in >>>>>>1982. It is a very interesting and challenging business and I am >>>>>>still working in that field. >>>>>> >>>>>>In my spare time I started to develop the oil press 5 years ago. No >>>>>>big institute, no public money, no support. My intention was to >>>>>>develop a small press for the poorest in order to give them the >>>>>>possibility to produce oil for the local market: as edible oil, >>>>>>medicine, cream, bio fuel or whatever use they could sell the oil >>>>>>for. At present they can only sell the seeds, if they have any, >>>>>>often for very low prices. With the press they can produce oil from >>>>>>seeds they produce themselves (farmers), find in the forest or buy >>>>>>on the local market (landless and people in the cities). The value >>>>>>added is high, making it possible to earn about 2 times as much as >>>>>>a local wage. There was no such press on the market. All presses >>>>>>are too expensive, beginning with 1000 euro or more. I used the >>>>>>cheapest materials, made all prototypes myself, did all experiments >>>>>>(including extraction efficiencies), imported various grains(not >>>>>>all are available in The Netherlands), made the web-site, developed >>>>>>the packaging, promotion of the press etc. etc. I decided not to >>>>>>take all these hours into account and keep the price of the Piteba >>>>>>press low. I produce the press myself in my own new work shop, >>>>>>because local manufacturers were too expensive for quantities below >>>>>>5000. I installed all necessary machinery especially to make >>>>>>production possible in my own spare time, reducing production >>>>>>costs. Of course the consumer price is considerably higher than the >>>>>>retail prices, so it gives retailers the chance to sell the press >>>>>>locally with a reasonable profit. Unfortunately sending 1 press by >>>>>>mail makes it about 40 to 60% more expensive, but still it is >>>>>>affordable and available. >>>>>> >>>>>>I would really appreciate it if you could help me to put your >>>>>>energy in developing useful applications of the oil produced by the >>>>>>Piteba press. I see that you all have practical ideas that could be >>>>>>very useful. I am thinking of a small diesel engine running on >>>>>>vegetable oil to be connected to the local water pump, a small >>>>>>burner for cooking, easy soap making practices, vegetable >>>>>>conservation techniques in oil, production of peanut butter (or >>>>>>made of other nuts), flavouring techniques, scented oils (massage) >>>>>>etc. etc. In this way you could help me to make the Piteba >>>>>>initiative a success. It would be highly appreciated. >>>>>> >>>>>>Hoping to hear from you, >>>>>> >>>>>>With kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>>Edwin Blaak >>>>>> >>>>>>PITEBA >>>>>> >>>>>> > > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
