John writes > No one
in this discussion believes that Christ sinned, Dean.
cd responds
> Respectfully- If one states that Christ had a fallen nature
sinful nature that is what one is saying John.
No, Dean, it
is not. Rather, it is what you hear us saying. Your hearing,
however, is influenced by your view of sin. That John and I and Debbie
and Lance, and even David on this one, are coming from a different
vantage point than you, is a given. Why assume then that you can see well
enough from your perch to identify things from
ours?
The same
question goes both ways Bill. Why would you and the four in your corner
assume that you are comprehending and understanding what Dean
speaks of since your view is also influenced by how you view
sin.
I began
my previous post with an assurance that none of us view Jesus as a
sinner; John did the same with his; yet you continue to speak
only from a limited view, rather than budge just a little, that you might
see him more completely.
Dean is seeing
Him completely, it is your group who have the "limited view"
Bill. A sinner is a sinner by nature - that
is one with a
sin nature born in fornication with a legacy in the first
Adam.
There must be
some reason why we can see Jesus as fully representative of humankind in
sinful flesh, and yet uphold the truth that he did not sin while in that
flesh. Why must conclude therefore that he must have been a sinner? Why not
give us the benefit of the doubt, if for just a peak, and try to see things
from our perspective?
Why not give
Dean the benefit of the doubt and all of you try to see it from a scriptural
perspective as he is doing? The Jews in Jesus day who believed they
belonged to God claimed to be Abraham's seed and not born of fornication (John
8:41) - so apparently they understood that it was "spiritual seed"
rather than the fruit of Abraham's loins that made one a child of
God.
You have a
Christ who was born perfected from the womb, yet the writer to the Hebrews
clearly states that Christ "learned obedience through suffering" and that it
was only after "having been perfected" -- that is, after his resurrection
even -- that he became the Author of salvation.
The suffering
was in obeying the will of the Father to the point of laying down his
life on a sinners cross when he had no sin and BTW he left us an example that
we should follow in His steps but you have a Christ who has done it all IYO so
that you don't need to perfect anything.
You have a
Christ who was born fully sanctified, yet Jesus himself says, "I sanctify
myself (present continuous) that they too might be sanctified by the
truth."
Yes he was a
"holy thing" from birth and the kind of sanctification he refers to here (John
17:17) is sanctification in God's Word which is
truth because He is not of this world and neither were they. Amazing
that some doctrines of men today have the whole world
sanctified and saved in Christ today aside from knowing one word of God's
Truth.
You have a
Christ who did not experience the temptations of a fallen man, yet Paul writes
that he came in the likeness of our sinful flesh, because of sin, that he
might condemn sin in the flesh.
Wrong
again. Dean's Christ overcame in the three areas that caused the fall
and then went on to endure the cross, where he took upon himself the sin of
all humanity - despising the shame of it for the joy set before
Him.
You have a
Christ who did not share in our humanity, yet Luke assures us that he was born
of the fruit of David's genitals according to the flesh, and the writer to the
Hebrews that as much as we "share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also
partook of the same," ... that he might assume the nature
of Abraham's offspring.
When will you
get one of these right Bill. Of course he shared flesh and blood with us
aside from David's genitals which were by that
time mouldering in the grave like John Brown's body. Heb 2:14 says nothing
about the "nature"
of Abraham's
offspring; it speaks of Jesus taking on a flesh and blood body so that through
death he might render
powerless him
who had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Indeed their
is enough here to warrant a second look, Dean. But if you will not budge, then
I must respectfully request that you please keep silent about things you
cannot see. Bill
And as our
kids often say "right back atcha Bill" that is - "if you will not budge"
because Dean is not wresting anything. Nor is he speaking of "dualism"
Jesus had one nature and one only and I'll let you in on a secret.
It
was
not that of the devil like an unregenerate son of the first Adam.
