You'll notice that Brad said he did send an acknowledgement of receipt for
every applicant. For that matter, I believe we do too. But a quick form
email saying "Got your resume" is a lot different than what I was hearing
for feedback desired from the discussion here, where people were annoyed at
not even being able to get an interview. I agree with Brad, it's just not
feasible to send a "Sorry you didn't get the job" note to everyone who
didn't, and certainly not workable to try to indicate to people why they
didn't get an interview. In our form letter acknowledgement we give a time
range in which we're planning to interview, and then we do inform those who
got interviews but didn't get the job of that outcome. But those who got
the form letter, if they didn't hear about scheduling an interview they
should assume they didn't get one and move on. To be honest, it's been
that way throughout my career, any time I've applied anywhere.
Tony
--On Thursday, January 29, 2009 02:21:00 PM -0500 Paul Flint
<fl...@flint.com> wrote:
Dear Brad,
If you need a procmail script to send back an acknowledgement letter, I
could do that. Good communications design is almost as important as good
graphic design. (Notice I use ASCII email :^).
Regards,
Flint
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Bradley Holt wrote:
> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:24:51 -0500
> From: Bradley Holt <bradley.h...@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: Vermont Area Group of Unix Enthusiasts <VAGUE@list.uvm.edu>
> To: VAGUE@LIST.UVM.EDU
> Subject: Re: Truth to power - re: Logic Supply
>
> Thanks for adding the perspective of an employer to this discussion,
> Tony. As a small business owner of a company that is currently hiring
> (a graphic designer position) I thought I'd add a couple more
> thoughts. We only advertised the position in one local newspaper
> (Seven Days) for one week but got over 85 responses. Apparently the
> job posting got syndicated to several online job boards (*not* at our
> request). We were looking for targeted advertising but apparently
> that's not an option for job postings today.
>
> We are hiring because we're busy. That means we didn't have time to
> give personal responses to everyone that applied (although we did
> acknowledge receipt of every application). We did, however, look at
> every resume that came in including ones with no cover letter, no
> email body, misspellings, bad design (it's a design position!), and
> unrealistic expectations. As a rule of thumb, people don't know how to
> present themselves when applying for a job (at least that's been our
> experience). Similar to Tony's experience, many people obviously did
> not read the job description. Is it rude of us not to give a personal
> response to all 85 applicants given these facts? I don't think so.
>
> Beyond the reasons given above, there's another really big reason why
> companies don't respond to applicants or give very terse responses:
> liability. Say something that can be interpreted the wrong way and
> you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit. The less you say, the less
> your liability. I'd love to tell people exactly why they didn't get an
> interview so that they can make improvements when they apply for jobs
> in the future but that's just not practical.
>
> A while back we advertised for a web developer position. During that
> process I tried to give people specific reasons why we were not
> bringing them in for an interview. Several times I was met with very
> rude and harsh responses (um, you're resume doesn't address any of the
> things we said we were looking for). If people can't appreciate an
> honest response then why should I go out of my way to give you an
> honest response? Many job applicants have a sense of entitlement.
> Sorry, but you're not entitled to a job. We've worked very hard and
> sacrificed a lot to get our business to where it is. We are not
> obligated to provide a job to you. The flip side of this (and the
> little secret most businesses don't want you to know) is that
> companies need employees as much as employees need employers. Just
> remember that and you'll be OK. Clearly communicate your value and
> make sure to specifically address what the company said they're
> looking for and how *you* are a fit.
>
> Thanks,
> Bradley
>
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Tony Harris <harr...@ccv.vsc.edu>
wrote:
>> --On Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:22:25 PM -0500 Rion D'Luz
>> <riond...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> A friend of mine applied for over 120 jobs in 2006
>>>> and received 6 denials, 1 calls, and 1 interview. Unfortunately its
par
>>>> for
>>>> the course --
>>> Which is not an excuse! I realize that's the way it is. I accept that,
but
>>> if a company is
>>> going to advertise to fill a job then they should allocate the
resources
>>> necessary to
>>> respond in a timely fashion to all respondents; even those who fail
the
>>> pre-screening filter.
>>
>>
>> So to add my 2 cents in here, and potentially ignite things more than
they
>> are, let me give a couple perspectives here. I'm probably a bit
younger
>> than some of you who are complaining, rightly, that age discrimination
is
>> rampant in IT hiring. I'm only 45. But, I've been in IT for 26 years
now,
>> in fact I've never had another career. I've been both on the applicant
>> side, and the search-team side.
>>
>> For the age thing, check out an older (90's) book titled "Seven Lean
Years"
>> by Tom Nadeau (an avid OS2 supporter). See his site at
>> <http://www.os2hq.com/articles/seven.htm> in fact. He's right. Age
>> discrimination is common in the IT industry, and hasn't gone down since
he
>> wrote the book. I am lucky to work for an organization where that
doesn't
>> seem to be true, in fact I'm at the middle of the spectrum on our
team's
>> age, with at least half the department, all hired after me, above my
age,
>> sometimes by a fair amount. But that's the exception, not the rule.
And
>> one thing we've learned from the laissez-faire economic strategy is
that
the
>> corporate world does not indulge in what's right or fair unless a) it
makes
>> them more money than being unfair, or (often *and*) b) they are dragged
>> kicking and screaming, fighting all the way, into some tiny bit of
fairness
>> by laws and regulations. Not so true in general of small firms, but it
>> still applies depending on the owners. For really big corporations,
the
>> bigger they are, the more true it is.
>>
>> That said, putting on my search-team member hat, there are a lot of
reasons
>> why people don't get replies and don't get interviews. It's not *all*
age
>> discrimination. We've had times where we'll advertise an entry level
>> position and get 150 resumes, some of which clearly didn't even bother
to
>> read any of the description we put in the paper. Frankly, if they
can't
>> bother to read the description and are going to apply for something
they're
>> totally not qualified for, then I don't think the employer is under any
>> obligation to even acknowledge receipt. Some come in with no cover
letter,
>> just a vague resume. Some come in with a cover letter that has
spelling
>> errors, grammatical errors, etc. Some have come in with cover letters
that
>> include a complaint about some aspect of the institution or the
application
>> process (maybe one should wait until *after* getting the job and making
it
>> through the probationary period before dissing the place one is
applying
>> to?).
>>
>> Frankly if people want a job they do have to at least come across as
>> professional and positive about the place they're applying to. Another
>> thing that will shoot down a candidate is if they've had 25 jobs in the
last
>> 5 years or something. Or big unexplained gaps of employment in their
>> resume. If you're consulting and you have 25 different short-term
>> contracts, list one consulting job with 25 contracts, not 25 jobs and
hope
>> the employer assumes you're doing independent consulting or contract
>> work. If you've been out of work and supplementing with consulting,
show it
>> that way. If out of work due to injury, family situation, etc., then
>> include some explanation of that so people know. And finally we've had
>> people who apply who are clearly over qualified for the job at hand,
just
>> got laid off from somewhere, and would be driving an hour to work at a
much
>> lower-paying job. To the employer, that says you're desperate and that
the
>> first chance you get at something closer to home that's more like what
you
>> were doing and pays better, you're outta there. Nobody wants to be
doing
>> another search 3 months after hiring someone.
>>
>> I am not saying anyone on this list doesn't know all this already.
But I
>> figured after reading all the comments here about applying for jobs, it
>> might be good to throw in the other side.
>>
>> Flame retardant suit is now in place, fingers are firmly in the ears,
and
>> I'm humming. So I make no promises to respond to any explosions this
rant
>> might generate.
>>
>> --
>> Tony Harris
>> Assistant CTO
>> Community College of Vermont
>> harr...@ccv.edu
>> (802) 241-3535
>>
>> Dwirze ski, evarre kolex.
>> (One by one droplets, eventually an ocean.)
>> -------------------------------------------
>> PRIVACY & CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message is for the designated
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://bradley-holt.blogspot.com/
>
Kindest Regards,
Paul Flint
(802) 479-2360
/************************************
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Paul Flint
Barre Open Systems Institute
17 Averill Street
Barre, VT
05641
http://www.bosivt.org
http://www.flint.com/home
skype: flintinfotech
Work: (202) 537-0480
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Consilium
gratuitum .~.
valet /V\
quanti /( )\
numerantur ^^-^^
