Abd is right, I've been trying to say multiple times that the meter measures humidity of air up to 98% humidity. The probe can go to 150 C without being broken but that does not mean that it can measure accurately up to 150 C. But that's for *air* anyway. We want to know the steam quality. This probe does *not* do this.
It takes an expensive complicated system to measure steam quality and even then, the one I found on the market needs an overpressure of some amount so that it can expand it into a chamber and then measure the resulting temperature, It measures *air* humidity. Not steam quality. !!!!! Two months ago I offered to explain this to Jed on the phone and asked for his phone number - because he kept misinterpreting what I was writing on this subject. His reply was "no" and "what's the point?". Well if he keeps promoting Rossi without understanding humidity vs. steam quality then the point is he is helping Cold Fusion take a big black eye without learning the difference between humidity measurements in air and steam quality. Rossi is dumping the evidence down the drain. Why else would he not dump it into a big tank and measure the temperature rise of the water? Abd says he just wants to confuse people and keep competitors away - I say it's because Rossi is a fraud. here are excerpts from my previous emails over the past 3 months all lumped together: ============================ Rossi used this electronic device for electronic measurement (as was reported) - model HD37AB1347. Relative Humidity probe model HP474AC was attached to it. Page three of this link (thanks to Horace) shows details of that probe connected to the electronic device. HP474AC has the following specifications: http://tinyurl.com/45rwsvh HP474AC Relative Humidity Probe specifications: 5% to 98% RH >>> -40C to 150 C +/- 2.5% (5%...95%RH) +/-3.5%(95%...99%RH) Temp +/-0.3C ================================= Here is a link to a description of a "throttling calorimeter" which is a device that measures the quality ("wetness") of steam. Basically the throttling calorimeter involves letting the pressurized steam expand into a cavity and measuring the temperature of the resulting gas. It only works with pressurized steam such as 30 psia steam or higher so that it can expand down to 15 psia or atmospheric pressure. http://www.plantservices.com/articles/2003/378.html?page=full ====================================== The HD37AB1347 device with the HP474AC probe is designed to measure air with 0% to 100% humidity. It is not designed to measure pure water vapor with tiny liquid droplets (including zero liquid droplets) in it. It isn't even close - there is no way that measuring Relative Humidity will give you the quality (mass fraction of vapor) of the steam. They might have somehow used the device to measure quality of the steam in a non-standard non-typical manner but I can't think of a way they might have done that. The capacitance as measured by the probe would be vastly different when measuring air saturated at 100% compared to pure water vapor (with or without tiny liquid droplets). If someone is able to find out what the vapor looked like when it left the hose then let us know. Was it transparent and high velocity? 12 kW should make a serious sized jet of water vapor that should condense into whitish cloud some distance from the hose. ============================================== As far as I can see, they are still making mistakes by using a humidity meter to test for the mass fraction of vapor to liquid water - also known as "steam quality from their technical paper: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3144960.ece/BINARY/Download+the+report+by+Kullander+and+Ess%C3%A9n+%28pdf%29. http://tinyurl.com/68wqoyy it says: "The system to measure the non-evaporated water was a certified Testo System, Testo 650, with a probe guaranteed to resist up to 550°C. The measurements showed that at 11:15 1.4% of the water was non-vaporized, at 11:30 1.3% and at 11:45 1.2% of the water was non-vaporized." here is the humidity meter http://www.instrumart.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=28689&gps=1 http://www.instrumart.com/assets/108/650AW.pdf this does not measure the quality of the steam! ============================================ So they are again using a crappy temperature probe to figure out steam quality (dry versus wet steam)? This is so bogus. If the boiling water has a back pressure of 0.6 psi, the temperature will be raised by 1 degree C see here: http://www.broadleyjames.com/FAQ-text/102-faq.html Is this the third time they have done this stupid method of measuring evaporation of steam? Or is more than 3 times. Does anyone have the correct count of times they have done this? Why don't they feed the steam into a 55 gallon water tank and then measure the temperature rise of the water as *everyone* has been suggesting? They probably don't and won't because they are frauds. ======================================== Below is a chart of steam vapor exit velocity for Rossi's experiment for reference. It's a mixture of SI units and English units (i.e. inches, mph, grams). Col 1. Black Hose Inner Diameter (in) Col 2. Mass flow rate in grams per sec (g/s) Col 3. Steam 100% Vapor Exit Velocity (mph) Col 4. Thermal Power (kW) Col 1 Col 2 Col 3 Col 4 ------- ------- ------- -------- 0.4 5 230 13.2 0.5 5 147 13.2 0.6 5 102 13.2 0.7 5 75 13.2 0.8 5 57 13.2 0.9 5 45 13.2 0.4 3 138 7.9 0.5 3 88 7.9 0.6 3 61 7.9 0.7 3 45 7.9 0.8 3 35 7.9 0.9 3 27 7.9 0.4 2 92 5.3 0.5 2 59 5.3 0.6 2 41 5.3 0.7 2 30 5.3 0.8 2 23 5.3 0.9 2 18 5.3 ======================================= On Steve Krivit's blog: http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/06/16/preliminary-report-of-interviews-with-e-cat-trio-rossi-focardi-and-levi/ Steve writes: "....On my request Tuesday, Rossi removed the hose from the drain. Before doing so, he carefully lifted the last meter of the hose above the height of the drain, allowed any water in it to flow down the drain for a few seconds, and then removed the hose from the drain, keeping the open end pointed up. I could see some white steam slowly exiting from the hose. He said he had to put it back in the drain quickly, after a few seconds, otherwise it could be dangerous." ============================================ It is hard to know the velocity of the steam exiting the black rubber hose in Rossi's experiment. Below are some calculations in Excel based on all the liquid turning to vapor. Krivit says (above) "I could see some white steam slowly exiting from the hose". Caveat: In Krivit's observation we don't know the thermal power level, the water flow rate or if it is just at the beginning. Let's look at human breath velocity when blowing really hard as a reference. I don't know the velocity of human breath - I tried to google it but got nothing. I did a back of the envelope calculation. Assume One breath = 1000 cc (I measured mine when blowing very hard) and assume you open your mouth so that the opening has a size of about 0.7 cm tall and 1.5 cm wide (I measured this to get this estimate) and assume you blow it all out in 0.25 seconds. This gives a breath velocity of 90 mph. ============================================ On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote: > Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: > >> Jed, these devices measure a number of things directly, and others are >> calculated. I see no sign that the device is designed to measure steam >> quality. It's not a described application. > > Yes, it is. The Delta Ohm meter with an HP474AC probe, the meter is intended > to go up to 150°C. That's steam temperature. The meter is intended to > measure enthalpy. > > Why would they make a meter that goes up to steam temperatures, which > specifically says it measures calories per gram, but it does not do that? > What would be the point? > > Look, Abd, you need to get real. I honestly have no idea how these meters > work. Electronic instruments are often black boxes that work by black magic. > But these meters are made by several different companies and it is > reasonable to assume they work as advertised. They measure enthalpy. > Otherwise, some agency would go after the companies for false advertising. > If the gadget did not work with steam, what possible use would it be? Who > would buy it? You would not use one of these single-probe instruments to > measure the enthalpy of hot water. You use these nifty things: > > http://www.dynasonics.com/products/tfx-ultra.php > > If Rossi would incorporate the Testo 650 with the printer option, and have > it print enthalpy every minute, he would have a bang-up, irrefutable > demonstration. He could measure the reservoir before and after, power input, > and then show that the printed record of enthalpy does not vary much, so the > flow rate and power level is reasonably stable. That would prove his point. > Just multiply the average enthalpy by the total mass of water consumed and > Bob's your uncle. > > That would be nice touch, but the video demo was impressive enough. Rossi is > a more impressive in person, in the video, then he is in his blog. > > - Jed > >
