At 06:11 PM 12/23/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Excellent spin Lomax. Gotta admit, I did not forsee this spin. So,
it's about "Balance" now, right?
OK, if I am understanding you correctly, we should look at
muhammed's life in "Balance".
No, Jojo does not understand. Judging the interpretation of facts
requires *balancing* evidence. Someone who is reasoning from
conclusions only looks at evidence in one direction. Here, we can
see, Jojo simply assumes his conclusion, and says things that are not
from *any* source that would have knowledge. Watch.
On the one hand, he is a child molester who forced sex on a 9
year old little girl barely out of diapers;
He repeats the "barely out of diapers," because what he wants to do
is create an impression. Ayesha, at the time when sex became an
issue, was sexually mature. Now, it can happen -- it's very rare --
that a very, very young girl might be sexually mature, technically.
But that was not the case with this young woman. She was, at the
*earliest* of the ages reported, nine. And the Arabs didn't use diapers.
So: what is the source that
1. Sex was "forced" on her.
2. She was little.
3. She was "barely out of diapers."
4. He was a "child molester."
You can find sources that she was nine; the problem is, these sources
don't tell us how the reporter knew she was nine. Basically, it boils
down to *rumor.*
So the only thing that is *possibly true* there is based on rumors.
What is clear is that the Muslim sources on which *all this is based*
consider her sexually mature at consummation. And that was
established by the ruling of a judge in the Yemen that a 10-year-old
girl was raped -- by her "husband" -- because she had not gone
through puberty. Believe me, if there was some idea that Ayesha was
not sexually mature, that decision would have gone very differently.
Marriageability at puberty is an almost universal tribal standard,
around the world. It still exists, in theory, in some U.S. states,
it's merely very, very rare that a judge would allow it (and very
young marriage requires the permission of a judge).
BUT BUT BUT .... on the other hand, he is a such such such great
leader and allah's apostle (the HOLEY prophet) he is worth
following and killing and going to jihad for. Is this what you
want people to swallow? OK whatever.
I don't think I've mentioned anything about "going to jihad," nor
have I extolled the greatness of the Prophet. No, Jojo is attacking
this because he believes it would enrage me. After all, I'm a Muslim,
and he's been taught to believe that we go ballistic over people saying that.
No. We don't, most of us, we are more amused at the idiocy of the
claims of someone like Jojo. He's not the first to say these things,
the Pedophile Prophet trope was common for a time on
soc.religion.islam until it simply was talked to death, and the
moderators started to ban it. Christian moderator included. The real
Christian apologists never supported it. It embarrassed them, in
fact. Of course, those were real Christians.
Have I not told that truth that muhammed had a 9 year old concubine
that HE HAD SEX WITH?
1. Might be true that he had a nine-year old wife.
2. Not true that he had a nine-year old concubine.
If you consider it insulting when people tell the truth about your
religion islam, how do you think I would feel when people told lies
about the Bible? The Bible written by goat herders? Nothing could
be more moronic.
The Bible was not written by goat herders. That's as nonsensical as
Jojo's diapers on a nine-year old Arab woman (who was, by all
accounts, sexually mature.)
Well, I guess, a book written by honest hard working goat herders
has got to be infinitely better than a book written by a child
molester. LOL....
No, the bible was not written by goat herders, nor was the Qur'an
written by a child molester. It even was not written by Muhammad. He
was, like the goat herders, illiterate.
Jojo
PS. So, how about apologizing for calling me a liar about A'isha.
And then he lies about what I said, or what I said was really about a lie.
You said that I was lying about muhammed's 9 year old concubine
Not a concubine. I wrote at one time that maybe there was a servant
girl who was young, but I don't know such a story and Jojo didn't
pick up on the distinction. Above, he makes it pretty clear that he's
calling Ayesha a concubine. She wasn't. Period. So there goes a repeated lie.
and that there were only "evangelical" sources.
Never said that about the Ayesha material. Jojo does not actually pay
attention.
I have provided sources from muslim scholars (2 of them.)
Those are not "scholars", as such. They are *sources*, early ones,
compilations of stories about the Prophet, and they don't confirm
Jojo's claims.
Are you honest enough to acknowledge that I did not lie about what I
am saying.
I never denied that sources exist. I denied that you had provided
them, and suggested that you were not providing them because they
would not show what you claim. So, today, you provided two sources
for some of the major claims about Ayesha, and they are all material
familiar to me. They show that Ayesha was sexually mature. Jojo can't
see that, because he is absolutely convinced, he firmly *believes*
that Muhammad was a child molester, and that includes that Ayesha was
a "child," so "sexually mature," which is obvious from the stories,
flies right past him.
How about learning how to study and research correctly, ha? My
goodness, you were a muslim chaplain? No wonder muslims are
confused. They have you as the chaplain.
Nah. That was a small group of inmates at San Quentin, over a decade
ago, last time I served. I've served other times as imam, but, one
should know, any Muslim can do that, it merely refers to leading the
prayer, and since I know a fair amount of Qur'an by heart, and when I
find myself in a congregation -- which isn't often, unfortunately --
I might lead. There is also some level of respect for age, and I'm 68.
As to doing research correctly, I doubt that I'm going to learn that
from Jojo. He's got no clue.
So, who's the liar now.
Jojo Jaro, and he repeated the lies. Just saying!
I provided proof from muslim scholars.
About "diapers"? About "child molester"? About "forced sex"?
(Salih Muslim and Salih Bukhari are 2 of the most respected and
venerated muslim works.) You provided proof from wikipedia. Yet I
am the liar?
I did not provide "proof" from Wikipedia. I provided evidence from
Wikipedia, which then was verifiable from references on Wikipedia.
Yes, Jojo, you are a liar. Just look above. "diapers." "forced." A
sexually mature woman whom you call a "little girl." You've claimed
again and again that all you are doing is telling the truth, but
those are false. Preposterous lies, actually.
You may only be careless, but at this point you must be considered
responsible. That's why I say "lies."
In case people don't see it. Here's the proof of A'isha (muhammed's
9 year old sexual toy) again.
Great. Where is "sexual toy" in this? (Does Jojo notice, by the way,
the contradiction here? Was betrothal at seven or at six? At least
one major source, Tabari, said betrothal was at ten. These are
*rumors* that were passed down from person to person, through a few
links, before being written down.)
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace
be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to
his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and
when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
She kept her dolls. This means? My eleven-year-old has her stuffies.
"Taken as a bride" could mean consummation. Or not. It's unclear.
This was not particularly controversial, I wrote many times that some
sources, perhaps the majority opinion, was six for betrothal and nine
for consummation. But look at the rest of the sources, and what they say.
And I just found a very recent article by a Muslim woman in the
Guardian, on the point of the age of Ayesha:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth
This article is not a scholarly one, per se. It refers to the
tradition below, and notes that the authenticity of this tradition
has been challenged. But Bukhari, it's also true, is one of the more
reliable collections of hadith. That does not equal "infallible."
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed
there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of
six years of age, and he consumed [sic] that marriage when she was
nine years old.
This was not narrated from Ayesha, like the hadith in Muslim. Who
knows where Hisham got the story?
Here is how the Prophet used to have fun and sex with his child bride.
And then the story cited isn't about "fun and sex." And we don't know
how old Ayesha was in these stories. She could have been eighteen,
for example, if the Muslim story is accurate. She would have been
recalling her life with the Prophet, so one would think this was
later life. That's how memory works.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub.
During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below
the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head
near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).
The only reference to having sex here is "junub." That means *after
sex.* They used to wash together.
That, folks, and that he was willing to touch his wife when she was
menstruating, was the big point here. These are two separate comments
from Ayesha. I.e., how they washed when junub, and what they did when
she was menstruating.
The chapter this is from is on the menses!
Some others from that chapter, my quotation (not Jojo's).
Hadith no: 294
Narrated / Authority of: Aisha
While in menses, I used to comb the hair of Allah's Apostle.
Hadith no: 294
Narrated / Authority of: Urwa
A person asked me, "Can a woman in menses serve me? And can a Junub
woman come close to me?" I replied, "All this is easy for me. All of
them can serve me, and there is no harm for any other person to do
the same. 'Aisha told me that she used to comb the hair of Allah's
Apostle while she was in her menses, and he was in Itikaf (in the
mosque). He would bring his head near her in her room and she would
comb his hair, while she used to be in her menses."
Here he is in seclusion in the mosque. Looks like she had a room
there. The whole point of this story is that being touched by a
menstruating woman does not create ritual impurity. She doesn't have
cooties. (Blood itself is considered impure -- not just menstrual
blood. So don't touch the blood!)
Hadith no: 297
Narrated / Authority of: Um Salama
While I was laying with the Prophet under a single woolen sheet, I
got the menses. I slipped away and put on the clothes for menses. He
said, "Have you got "Nifas" (menses)?" I replied, "Yes." He then
called me and made me lie with him under the same sheet.
i.e., there is no need to keep apart from a menstruating woman. Why
would one think so? Well, Jewish tradition, perhaps. This wasn't
Ayesha, and he didn't go running to Ayesha because Um Salama was in
her menses. She got her turn. That was the practice.
Hadith no: 298
Narrated / Authority of: Aisha
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we
were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar
(dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf,
he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used
to be in my periods (menses).
"Fondle", here, implies above the waist. It's not clear what it
means, specifically. Certainly touch. I don't have the Arabic text. I
could get it, but, not for today.... Is it big news that a husband
likes to touch his wife?
Hadith no: 299
Narrated / Authority of: Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad
(on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's
Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he
used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha
added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could."
This tradition indicates that the Izar was put on, indicating that
touch was not to be below the waist. This also indicates that
"fondling" was not something just for Ayesha. Ayesha's added comment
confirms that there was *no* sex at this point, just affectionate
contact. Sex during the menses -- i.e., intercourse -- is prohibited.
Hadith no: 300
Narrated / Authority of: Maimuna
When ever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle any of his wives during
the periods (menses), he used to ask her to wear an Izar.
Back to Jojo's quoted material:
Sahih Muslim Book 3, Number 0629:
'A'isha reported: I and the Messenger (may peace be upon him) took a bath
from the same vessel and our hands alternated into it in the state that we
had had sexual intercourse.
This is about bathing after intercourse, and gives no indication of age.
Can we ever imagine how an over fifty years old man could fondle his
pre-teen wife during her menstrual cycle! By the way, the meaning of Junub
is sexual defilement, that is, the state after having sex.
"Defilement" is a bit much. It's a condition of "ritual impurity."
And it's removed by washing.
It seems that Jojo imagines that "fondle" would refer to touching her
genitals. He made that up. She, and all the women mentioned in the
traditions, in their menses, put on the Izar, to cover them from the
waist down, precisely so there would be no touching below the waist.
And they cuddled and touched. They slept together. Shocking, I know!
How old was she? We don't know. She could have been 18. But the
tradition was certainly accepted by many that she was as young as
nine when the marriage was first consummated. "Pre-teen" is a modern
concept. Gad, you should see some of the "pre-teens" floating around!
Ayesha was sexually mature, that's what's *entirely* clear.
Apparently, Ayesha was delightful.
In any case, I was rummaging around my library, and came across a
compilation of opinions by Hanbali scholars. The Hanbali school is
about the most conservative of the major schools. The Saudis are
formally Hanbali, but the reality of Saudi Arabia is worse than that.
In any case, the scholars accept the age of nine for consummation of
marriage based explicitly on the tradition that Ayesha was nine at
consummation.
I do not particularly respect Hanbali positions. If I have to choose
a school, it would be the Maliki, which is not so bound to a strict
interpretation of hadith, but, instead, looked to the actual practice
of the community in Medina, the city of the Prophet, as being most
likely to represent his actual practice. One can notice in this that
there is a lot of controversy over the sources of law!
There is one set of judgments that I find interesting here.
This is from "Chapters on Marriage and Divorce, Responses of Ibn
Hanbal and Ibn Rahwayh."translated by Susan A. Spectorsky, University
of Texas Press, 1993.
"Of age" for a woman is explicitly defined by Ibn Hanbal as
menstruating, in the first part of the book.
----------
I asked Ishaq about the minor orphan given in marriage by her wali:
"Is her option to dissolve the marriage [an automatic' separation or
not? Can her husband have intercourse with her before she is of age?
When is she of age? Can she opt before she is of age?
The sunna concerning that is that she can opt to end the marriage
when she is of age. She is of age when she has reached her ninth
year, because at that age she can begin to menstruate and bear
children. If her wali gave her in marriage and her husband wishes to
have intercourse with her, he cannot lawfully do so, until she
exercises her option whether to be married or not., and her exercise
of this option before she is of age has no legal effect. If one or
the other, or both of them die before coming of age, they never
inherit from each other. And I do not think it is ever up to a wali
to give a minor girl, one under nine years of age, unless she
specifically desires it. In that case she is given in marriage. Then
when she is of age she can exercise her option. [...]
-----------
Take-home points. This is about the "age of consent." Consent is
required both for marriage and for intercourse. What is called
"marriage" above, is bethrothal, not full marriage, and that's clear
because of the comment about inheritance. Marriage of a "minor girl"
isn't a full marriage. It's really betrothal, as with Ayesha when she
was (allegedly) six -- or ten, according to Tabari.
The case in the Yemen shows how this is still being interpreted. The
husband of a ten-year-old had intercourse with her, before she was
sexually mature. It was ruled that this was rape, precisely for the
same reason that sex with children under the age of consent is called
"statutory rape," *even if the girl consents.* She cannot give her
consent before she is sexually mature.
The "sunna" on much of this was established through the example of
Ayesha and the Prophet. There really is no disagreement in any Muslim
source on this: Ayesha was sexually mature when the marriage was consummated.
By the way, she went to live with the Prophet, apparently, at nine.
It's not completely clear that this meant that the marriage was
consummated at that time. The Hanbalis clearly interpret it that way.
The article I mention above differs.
But nobody disagrees on this: sexual maturity is necessary for
intercourse to be lawful. In modern usage, we call sexually mature
young women "children." But most of the world, for most time, has not
agreed with that.
