I agree with Kirk on the value of the World Tour.
What you get for the price is a no brainer for us.

Add showed really interesting things with dynamic forms, 4D Write Pro, and
4D View Pro.
I'll disagree a bit on the value of ORDA.  JPR showed some examples of how
much faster ORDA can be than the old "classic" way.
I'm really interested in putting these to the test in our vertical market
app.   We don't have huge data files, but we do a lot of cross-table number
crunching in a normalized structure that may really benefit.

And don't forget that you have plenty of time to talk to Add, JPR and
others in person.

Jim



On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:08 AM Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Hey Pat
> Yeah it will be really helpful for the planning you need to do.
>
> Let me know what you think.
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:01 AM Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for that Kirk. I found your ORDA comments interesting.
> > I'll be at the London event.
> > Pat
> >
> > On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 at 15:00, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <
> > 4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Heading home from the WT in Atlanta. For me this was the best WT so far
> > and
> > > I've been to them all. I think anyone using 4D benefits from attending.
> > The
> > > first day is free. In previous WTs day one was more of a sales pitch
> and
> > > feature overview. Not so this time. There are 17 demo databases in day
> > one.
> > > They highlight and present many of the new capabilities involving ORDA,
> > > Form, dynamic forms and a more refined preview of 4D for iOS. There
> are a
> > > number of useful elements you can pull right into a project - assuming
> > you
> > > are working v17+.
> > >
> > > And this is really a critical point - the World Tour is focused on the
> > > future of 4D and that future is ORDA. Actually it is more than just
> ORDA.
> > > ORDA is the new, modern direction of programming 4D is taking. It's not
> > > everything, though. The change in the way we can work with forms isn't
> > > connected with ORDA per se but it's no less a profound change. And a
> > > welcome one form me. I really like the form editor but the ability to
> > > create forms dynamically and store their definitions externally in JSON
> > > files is a good thing. The ability to store an entire 4D database (it
> > will
> > > be known as a Project) will be available soon (though not committed
> to).
> > >
> > > The first day exposes you to many of the new features in 4D and clearly
> > > lays out the thinking behind the changes made and to come. This alone
> > makes
> > > it worth the time and expense to travel to it.
> > >
> > > The second day is for those of us using 4D professionally. JPR and Add
> > have
> > > spent time putting together excellent demos and presentations. These
> demo
> > > the nuts and bolts of effectively working with ORDA and forms. This is
> > > information you will need to effectively apply these new techniques in
> > real
> > > world projects. And once more there are bits and pieces you can pull
> > right
> > > out of a demo and use yourself which do useful things.
> > >
> > > I was chatting with someone yesterday morning and he asked me what my 3
> > big
> > > take-aways were up to then. Here's what I wrote back:
> > >
> > > #1 - all the time I’ve spent learning to use ORDA has been spot on and
> > well
> > > spent. (I finished yesterday for the first time feeling like I kept up
> > with
> > > JPR.)
> > > #2 - this is truly the way forward for 4D.
> > > #3 - because it’s the way forward it is where all the resources are
> being
> > > focused. And they are moving fast.
> > > #4 - it’s super important to grasp the concept of references vs. the
> way
> > we
> > > have thought about variables in the past.
> > >
> > > (get the reference to my off-by-one joke?)
> > >
> > > I have been actively working on educating myself on ORDA and object
> > > oriented programming for the past few months. And I really did feel
> like
> > I
> > > was keeping up with JPR right up to the end of day 1. Not so much on
> day
> > 2
> > > but at least my eyes didn't glaze over. The point, though, is how much
> > > programming in 4D is changing. 4D classic and backward compatibility is
> > not
> > > in danger. I mean - they've been threatening to remove subtables for
> how
> > > many years and 4D still deals with them if it needs too. Mostly. So old
> > > school programming done with 4D classic is going to run on new versions
> > of
> > > 4D for probably longer than any of us will be able to write
> intelligible
> > > code. (Assuming you can write intelligible code now...) But all the new
> > > work is being focused on ORDA and its associated technology.
> > >
> > > Why? Because Laurant believes it's the direction to go. It's a modern
> > > approach to programming. You can (and will) argue with that but it's
> > where
> > > this train is headed.
> > >
> > > Do you need to get on board?
> > >
> > > I mean that seriously. The fact is you may not. There are a lot of us
> who
> > > have used 4D for a long, long time. We've written bunches of apps, have
> > > them deployed and running just fine. It's like a retired neighbor said
> to
> > > me when we were talking about repairing a fence on our common lot line:
> > "it
> > > only has to last as long as I do."  Personally I don't think there is
> any
> > > compelling reason to take old code that's running fine and try to
> inject
> > > ORDA into it. There is no advantage. As I understand it the database
> > engine
> > > in 4D is the same engine that Wakanda used. Wakanda exposed more
> > > capabilities of that engine but at the core it's the same engine. ORDA
> is
> > > rolling out so fast because the engine is already there and tested.
> ORDA
> > is
> > > a programming layer, if you will. 4D classic is different layer. ORDA
> is
> > > faster to develop with and requires less code to accomplish the same
> > > results. It's also more comprehensible to folks already accustomed to
> OOP
> > > languages or javaScript. I think there are some cases where classic 4D
> > may
> > > be faster on basic operations but I don't think those will stand
> because
> > > ORDA is where the focus is.
> > >
> > > If you are planning on retiring in the next few years, or selling your
> > > vertical market app there's no real reason for you to worry about
> > learning
> > > this stuff in my opinion. You don't have to have it. But if you are
> > looking
> > > at having your app running and being updated in the future, or our app
> is
> > > critical to a business, or looking at hiring programmers to work on
> your
> > > app, or looking at 4D as a rapid development platform (it used to be
> > > classified that way) then get to the World Tour and be willing to
> learn.
> > > Because once you get going with ORDA 4D is really fun to program in
> > again.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kirk Brooks
> > > San Francisco, CA
> > > =======================
> > >
> > > What can be said, can be said clearly,
> > > and what you can’t say, you should shut up about
> > >
> > > *Wittgenstein and the Computer *
> > > **********************************************************************
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *************************************************
> > CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
> > tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
> > w: http://www.catbase.com
> > skype: pat.bensky
> > *************************************************
> > **********************************************************************
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>
> --
> Kirk Brooks
> San Francisco, CA
> =======================
>
> What can be said, can be said clearly,
> and what you can’t say, you should shut up about
>
> *Wittgenstein and the Computer *
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