On Tuesday 13 October 2009 06:20, you wrote: > Kevin Donnelly wrote: > > Suppose I decide to replace the > > round wheels on my Citroen with square ones, and then go to the garage to > > complain that it bumps a lot when I drive along - what do you think > > they'll say? > > Issues like MIDI jitter depends to trouble by vanilla installs because > the Linux real-time kernel still is experimental and not fine with every > hardware, but even if there should be trouble because of changing the > vanilla install, this is the way to use a computer.
Firstly, I notice you didn't actually deal with my point, just said the equivalent of "that's what computers are for". No, they're not - if you break it, you get to put it together again, so before you break it, you'd better know a little about the consequences. Secondly, if you believe this, you are not living in the real world, and that in turn makes me wonder what your experience consists of. Most people just want a computer to do what they need done. If the hardware doesn't work, and it doesn't seem easily fixed, they either change the hardware, or live with it. They will take the line of least resistance - that is why a large number of people put up with Microsoft Windows' shortcomings - it's human nature. You seem to have a bizarre approach to problem-solving. The key in tracking down an issue is to control as many variables as possible, and then triangulate in on the free variables that may be causing the issue. You don't seem to do this - you change multiple variables, and then wonder (and send multiple posts) about which of them might be causing the issue. This sort of scattergun approach simply won't work if you are serious about getting a working audio system (which I have to say I am increasingly doubtful is your actual aim). I have also lost track of the number of hares you have set running, without apparently resolving - you raise one thing after another, and it is impossible to conclude whether this is a new issue, a continuation or outgrowth of the previous issue, or what. I don't see how anyone can support you sensibly. Quentin referred earlier to your pursuing things off-list. If so, then that just makes a lot of your posts here irrelevant. Why post the start of a problem without posting its resolution? In my view, based on experience on other lists, people who get offlist emails from you should copy them to the list and refuse other offlist posts. Otherwise the impression given on the public list will be one of a raft of unsolved problems. > If everything is > fine for you that is good news for Linux. Why don't you share your > experiences? I have. For me, at my level, things work. > Please try to understand that needs might differ. If you > don't need to record 6 hours sustained (btw. I also don't need to do > this) Then why mention it? > you won't run into trouble like someone would do, when trying to > record a Wagner opera by using Linux. This is just FUD. If you want to pay big money, Linux will do this and more. Why don't you do some research first? http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/features_detail.aspx?ui=CBC2593A-2C9F-4EF9-84BE-C198B0171453 http://www.ifx.com/products/piranha https://renderman.pixar.com/products/tools/rms.html http://www.linuxmovies.org/software.html etc etc etc > It doesn't help to claim > everything should be all right, while it isn't. Who has said that? Are you suggesting I have? Do you think there is some vast conspiracy to hide Linux's failings, and you are the only one fearlessly exposing the truth? Get real. Everyone knows there is a way to go yet. Linux is working under conditions that proprietary systems don't have to (and even they have problems). But it's still here (see below), and still developing, and at least some manufacturers are getting the message slowly. > I'm using 64 Studio, > because I just do it at home, just for myself. IMO there's a lot of work > to do, to make Linux audio better, e.g. the problems with SMPTE, no high > quality real-time re-sampling does mean, that you can't use SMPTE and > this does mean that you can't do "complete" film sync beyond home usage > ... "cord films" not videos might be uninteresting for you, but it's > interesting for me. I suspect the apps mentioned above have solved the SMPTE problem. If they have, then this is just more FUD. What do you think? Would pro apps be labouring under a lack of SMPTE support? > So what should users do, that try a lot and reach > borders by using Linux? Be quiet? Or write reports? They should report on issues that normal users are having. They should not take a hacksaw to the distro and then complain it doesn't work. Let me try and explain the difference: Normal user: My BibbleBox 3 isn't working - I've tried the instructions on their site, but 64Studio still doesn't see it. Any suggestions? or The new LoolaPalooza doesn't seem to be supported on Linux - should I return it, or is there something I can try to get it working (eg compile untested drivers), even if that means not all of its functions may be supported? or I can't get JACK to see my ZynAddSubFX, which I upgraded from the repo yesterday. Is anyone else having this problem? pretend-Ralf: My JubbleFX box isn't working, although I have a friend who told me that someone he saw in a studio had it working with a Mac. I haven't researched other people's experiences with the JubbleFX on Linux, because that takes time, and frankly I'd rather write a post. So what I did was upgrade (or is that downgrade, or even sidegrade) to a set of drivers from some obscure branch of Ubuntu, and that didn't work, so I didn't revert, but read on an unrelated mailing-list that sometimes people have problems like this when the MIDI driver needs to be recompiled, so I did that using sources I found on a website that came up when I did a Google search. That didn't work either, so I reverted my changes to the JubbleFX drivers, except now I'm getting error messages from Synaptic when I try to install the old ones (or is that new ones), so I think there's a bug in the repos, and I have to say I'm surprised no-one has noticed this before - it seems to be an ongoing problem with Linux audio. Anyway, to make a long story even longer, it occurred to me as I was writing this that a kernel recompile might sort out all this weirdness, so I tried that, but surprisingly (or is that unsurprisingly) it didn't help, so I downloaded the vanilla sources, and tried those, this time adding in a recompile of both the JubbleFX drivers and JACK, because I hadn't tinkered with that yet. Unfortunately (Linux audio again! tsk! tsk!) my JubbleFX still isn't working, and I'd like to report this so that newbies don't feel intimidated when they try to use 64Studio. I have also cc'ed Rui, Quentin, Dave, and a few other people, because I know their inboxes aren't full enough, and they're just itching to get stuck into solving my problem. Hmmm... Can you see anything different about these two users? There is plenty of advice on the web about how to post problems to mailing-lists - it might not be a waste of your time to start reading it. > Your analogy should be that I try to replace squares by wheels ;) ... a > nice analogy because squares on audio also have got a special effect. Totally irrelevant to the subject of the email, so .. moving on. > Okay, I'm writing to much email ... what would be the impression of a > rookie when there are no mails on the archive? I pity any rookie trying to follow the stuff in your emails - it's a sure recipe for buggering up a working distro. And even reading your stuff is sure to confuse them as to what they need to be doing - see my reply to sevol. And let's turn your point around ..... Scene: an office where the manufacturers of the new BeBopBloozer appliance are thinking about what OS they should run on it. A: What about this Linux thing? I hear there's a version specially built for music - Studio64 or something. B: Gee, man, I'm not sure. I've been lurking on their users list, and they seem to have no end of problems. There's one guy that keeps finding bug after bug in the damned thing. A: Oooh - maybe better give it a miss for another few years, until it's matured a bit. Do you think it's better to spread FUD? Is that sort of thing your intention? This isn't the only list where you have got up people's noses, as you admit yourself with some apparent pride: "I don't care about flames on Linux lists any more." If you think my Synfig post was a flame, you are sadly mistaken. This post is also not a flame, although if you want to see a real flame, I'll be quite happy to write one. Have you taken a moment or two to consider why people might be writing flames at you? Or is that part of the FUD too? "These Linux fanatics can't take anyone dissing their distro!" > > how widespread *are* his problems? > > I know people from this and other Linux lists now using Windows and > MacOS, because of exactly the same troubles I've got, That's their choice (and if they have approached Linux the way you have, I'm not surprised they chose to go back to OSs where the bits are screwed down). Given the fact that manufacturers want to keep things proprietary, it may be that some equipment just will not work with Linux - there's nothing can be done about that. There is also traffic the other way: http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/08/04/linux-music-workflow-switching-from-mac-os-x-to-ubuntu-with-kim-cascone/#more-6837 What do we deduce from this? What I said above: namely, that people will take the path of least resistance to find something that works for them. Life's too short. As I said in the Synfig email - you pays your money and you takes your choice. The key point is that Linux *does* work as an audio (video, office, games, research, hi-perf computing, mobile, graphics, etc) platform. Just do the same things you would do on those legacy OSs - use it mostly as given (because with them you have to), and use its additional functionality in small doses, in clear use-cases, after some research. Why should that be difficult, or even need mentioning? Of course, if your aim is to spread FUD about Linux's capabilities or functionality, you will not do this - you will do the exact opposite, and then post multiple times saying how you can't get something to work. > btw. someone from > this list e.g. has two USB MIDI devices and reported that he has got > trouble with one device, while the other one is fine to LAD. And has he or you contacted the maufacturers to ask them to produce drivers and/or data to allow drivers to be written? Greg Kroah-Hartman is running a team whose only aim is to produce drivers for stuff that doesn't work, http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/foswiki/bin/view but they can't do it without the manufacturers giving them info, and the manufacturers are more likely to do that if users ask them. Complaining without doing something tangible is just FUD. For your information, you might like to bear in mind that GKH has said that more pieces of hardware work with Linux than with any other OS: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2008/10/how-linux-supports-more-device.html I know he wasn't referring to music hardware, but I'm saying this to counter any impression newbies on the list may get from your incessant posts that Linux "doesn't work". It may not be supported *now* on *Ralf's particular piece of hardware* (though that may change if you wait). > I'm missing > such reports on this list, maybe next week you'll be the one buying the > USB device that won't work. No, I won't, because before I buy something I check that it works with Linux. In fact, I have several USB devices that work perfectly. There are plenty of sites or mailing-lists where you can research before buying (and buying stuff that supports Linux is one good way to persuade other manufacturers to do the same). If you can't find info on your specific item, then you have to decide whether you take a chance on it working or not. If it doesn't, then you can see if someone will work on it, or you wait until it does. I blew my mobo when I first installed Linux 10 years ago (memo to self - don't reseat components when the power is on). On openCaldera, which was the first one I could get to install properly, I was without audio for 2 years (and not for want of trying). It was four years before I could be sure of getting printers to work reliably. And all this time there has been FUD: - Linux is just a hobbyist project - Linux isn't really user-friendly - with Linux you have to use the command-line - you better get used to compiling your own kernel if you want to use Linux - Linux is more for servers, really - it's probably not advisable to run your office on Linux - Linux doesn't support audio very well - Linux doesn't have any end-user apps - Linux doesn't have a decent desktop experience - Linux may save money, but it's not supported by anyone - Linux is very fiddly to configure - the office apps on Linux can't really compare with proprietary ones - people don't actually need direct access to their data via open formats - the video experience on Linux isn't really very good - there is no consumer demand for Linux - no OEM is going to put it on a machine they sell to the public - itsy-bitsy computers running Linux aren't going to sell We all probably have our own list. But Linux is still here. Suppose Daniel et al had said a few years ago: "You know, they're right. I can't get half of my stuff to work, the audio skips a bit, and the apps all look a bit clunky - let's bin it and do something else."? We would not now have the fine distro we know as 64Studio. To me, this apparent lack of appreciation of hard Linux slog on your part means that you are speaking from a position of ignorance, and you are likely to mislead new users. We can't wave a magic wand and have fixes appear overnight, just because you happen to have some bit of kit on your desk that you feel should work. To new users, I would say: The bottom line is that Linux is a work-in-progress (which is actually its greatest strength), so your stuff may not work yet. You have several choices: - don't use Linux - don't use Linux yet - come back later, when your stuff may be supported - persuade the manufacturer to support Linux on your stuff (eg by getting them to contact GKH) - write support for your stuff (if you can get decent manufacturer data), either directly, or indirectly by paying a programmer to do it for you (under the GPL, of course) - get new stuff that is currently supported But you could argue that those apply to any OS (except that with legacy OSs the manufacturer will probably provide a driver themselves). > > Who else is having them? I don't remember a loud chorus of "me too"s to > > *any* of his posts. > > Are you kidding? Even this month there is an issue because of Qtractor. For you, maybe. QTractor works fine here. On an admittedly brief review of the list, it appears that the only person having an issue every month with QTractor is you. Did you have anyone else in mind? Or is this more FUD, to give the impression that there are a myriad issues? > Okay, for you Qtractor might be a square, because it's not from the 64 > Studio vanilla install, but keep in mind that Linux is a flexible OS and > e.g. installing KDE shouldn't (and don't) break 64 Studio. Have you done this???? I have (though admittedly on the previous 64Studio version), and it worked fine. I even did a dist-upgrade, and it worked fine. On the 3.0beta, I actually quite like GNOME, so I may not need to switch to KDE. Wait - your parenthetical "(and don't)" seems to suggest that in fact changing to KDE is OK. Then why mention this as a problem when it isn't actually a problem? Is it another example of you creating FUD by raising vague hypothetical doubts, like Microsoft did with DR-DOS? > > Incidentally, I believe Robin said that the .31 kernel wasn't really > > ready for use yet. Do you think there might be a connection between that > > and your install difficulties??? > > Hm, you are right, I do run uname -r 2.6.29-1-multimedia-amd64 and > replied to someone using the latest kernel, that he needs another rtirq > script in addition, I guess this is the reason that the package 64studio > is broken ;) in the repository. When there were no jack packages in the > repository, something that several users reported this was, because I > was thinking to change something for my vanilla install ;) ... I'm taking that as some sort of agreement to the effect that "Yes, maybe you are right that in some cases sticking to the distro as released is a good thing." Hold that thought .... > Pardon, I know that my style and amount of mails might be ... hmmmmm > ... but seldom the contents are OT. If nobody would use a beta, stable > releases needs much longer before they could be released (btw. I always > tell people to use this beta because it's fine). Well, here we are again - raising some sort of doubt about the beta, and then saying "well, it's OK, really". But the doubt remains. If this list is about resolving users' difficulties with the released distro, most of your posts are in fact OT - see above. Your posts would be OK on a 64studio-making-changes-I'm-not-sure-about-to-see-if-I-can-get-my-stuff-to-work-and-then-reporting-failure-multiple-times-and-then-going-on-to-something-else-before-that-issue-is-really-resolved list, but there isn't one of those yet. > Don't worry, if just one user does write 64 Studio isn't good, nobody > would care, IMO a serious problem could be that there are to less users > for Linux audio and that we have to less forums, wikis etc. and mails on > this list. I'm not sure I understand that, but if you mean that we have fewer users of Linux audio than for other OSs, then that is a fact. However, the number is growing. I can't see how posts of the type you make is actually going to increase the number - it may in fact decrease it. Reporting issues on the distro as released, with a clear use-case, and full replication details, is one thing; harping on about problems of your own making is completely different, and I don't see how that can be anything but FUD. ooooo If anybody has read this far, you will now know that any individual can write posts as long as Ralf if they put their mind to it, and have sufficient time on their hands. As Quentin said, though, it would be preferable for all you lurkers to put finger to keyboard and list your own issues, which are likely to be more relevant than any of Ralf's. The exact steps you took when trying to decide how to wire up Ardour and it didn't work. Howtos on using some of the apps (i'm doing one myself on TuxGuitar). Steps to upgrade to the latest version of Rosegarden (Thorn, which is looking very tasty). Etc etc. So post, so that we can try and address some real issues, rather than daft manufactured ones. I'd like to end by making a few points about lists in general: Contrary to what some people seem to have concluded, my Synfig post did *not* tell Ralf not to post (read it again). I asked him, rather: (a) not to post so frequently, especially post-post-post-scripts, and (b) try to stay on-topic by referring to problems with the distro as released, with less attention to those he has self-created. As with everything, it's a question of balance. I don't want to stop Ralf posting, and but I also don't see why he should want to fill my inbox with stuff that is irrelevant to 64Studio as released. Dave and others have suggested sending Ralf's emails to trash immediately, and I can certainly consider that. But there is a wider community issue here, which I would ask people to consider. The main point of mailing lists is to encourage a community to form around the list topic. I'm afraid this can't happen if the list gets monopolised by one person, no matter how "enthusiastic" (!, and their posts consist of things that are only related to the topic at one remove. I can bin Ralf's stuff, but that means I am closing off a small section of the list. If everyone starts doing that for different reasons with different people, we no longer have a 64Studio community. Far better would be for people to self-audit, and use a bit of common-sense, for example with regard to frequency of posting. Why should boorishness win out over good manners? On a language software list last month, one poster was actually banned because of the tone of her posts - she slagged off the software (while simultaneously asking for help on how to use it), and then insulted the devs when they told her how she could use it to do most of what she wanted, but not all. One of the reasons the list moderator gave was that this gave a bad impression of the community to new users. Up to now, I have been ignoring Ralf's posts. But the Synfig post was for me the final straw: "There seems to be a bug in the 64 Studio repository." For me, this is FUD pure and simple, and that is not on. I don't see how any new 64Studio user could read Ralf's posts without a shiver of dread creeping up his spine, and wondering what he has let himself in for. I wonder how many new users feel too nervous to post problems that are probably more mainstream (like sevol's) and relevant to improving the distro. I wonder how many others are put off even trying the distro by acres of posts detailing what seem to be bugs, but aren't. I don't think any of us want to go back to the bad old days when a lot of fiddling was required to get anything to work - nowadays most distros simply work with most things out of the box. I don't see why one person on this list should be allowed to post, unrebutted, things that suggest that in fact you do still need a PhD to use Linux, peppered with half-truths, slurs, and downright lies (see "Linux for video" point above). -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.cymraeg.org.uk - Welsh-English autotranslator www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg _______________________________________________ 64studio-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
