Actually, this was my comment, not Brian's, though Brian seemed to agree at least in part.
By the way, I think your suggestion that classical music involves the same degree of improvisation as jazz - if that is what you are suggesting - is quite mistaken. One plays a Mozart piano concerto as written - with a few optional decorations (which I personally usually do not like). There are of course cadenzas but even they are sometimes written by the composer - and in any case can just as easily be done without. A symphony doesn't even have that degree of latitude. The 'interpretation' a conductor or performer gives to classical music is not comparable to improvisation: it involves slightly different ways of playing the same notes, not insertion of strings of new notes. If I listen to a performance of say Mozart's 21st piano concerto, I know exactly what is coming next. It may be played slightly differently depending on the performer but it is always the same sequence of notes. (Thank God! The last thing I want is someone messing with my Mozart. It would be like someone adding a few brushstrokes to a Rembrandt or another chapter to 'Crime and Punishment)'. DA ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Sutherland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz -correction Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:36:18 +0900 > On 15/4/08 12:58, "Brian Jenkins" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > "I find it very repetitive. In fact I suspect one > > learns to play jazz partly through learning a series of > > rather standard routines." > > > > > > Brian, > > I understand what you are saying about teaching and > learning jazz but disagree with you on point of precision. > There is not so much difference from classical performance > in what you say. Many musicians can produce a passable, if > not laudable, rendition of many pieces, but few do this > masterfully. Few musicians are capable of the sensitive > virtuosity demanded to recreate a composed piece. This is > a difference between average craftsmanship in performance > and virtuosic, artistic performance; it may be significant > or slight in the act, but can immensely so in the outcome > in performance. > > To take your one of your examples, yes Beethoven's Op. 111 > can be performed masterfully, it can also be performed > atrociously and also with any variation in quality of > rendition in between the sublime and the awful, ambiguity > intended here as a play of humour. To say the same without > doubt, the performance can be any variation between the > utterly superb and the utterly atrocious. Some works were > completely unplayable when they were written, musical > pedagogy and other improvements in technique have made > them playable. Many, if not all renditions of classical > pieces are marked by error of some sort, wrong notes, > incorrectly struck keys, or the likes. Thus Glen Gould > spent so much time patching together his best performances > of pieces of a sonata or other pieces to make the best > example he could produce. He could not achieve those in > real time, thus did he not give up on live performance > altogether. > > Learning the craft is the first step for jazz and > improvising musicians, it is then requisite on the > musician to go beyond that individually and in ensemble > performances. Some musicians do, some don't, some can, > some cannot, transcend their learned practices. The very > fact that you found it impossible to do satisfactorily, is > a measure of the effort required to achieve that > transcendence from the routine to the creative. Yes, some > may be fully satisfied with a mundane performance, but > that is also true of classical performances. A good many > prefer the Blue Danube over Beethoven's Op. 111 or > Mahler's 5th symphony, but that does not make Blue Danube > better music, which you know. > > Free jazz can often sound like chaos, and sometimes chaos > is a sought goal. Or to say the same in another way, lack > of structure and repetition can be a striven goal, just as > abstract artists attempt to escape all traces of > representation, either intentional put there or > perceivable by an observer. But that attempt to escape any > structure or form is mostly not the intention. As most > other forms of music, free improvisation usually strive to > create and present a conceptualised idea, for example, > through the musical practice of musicians in ensembles. > > Let me make one point clear, I am not arguing that jazz > and improvised music, improvised within or outwith the > basic jazz bebop form and harmonies, are spontaneous > reproduction of music. This is quite in error, just as the > performance of Beethoven's Op. 111 is not quite the same > on each occasion. It is not, this is why Cage sought to > introduce elements of chance and criticised jazz. Yes, it > is the creation of music usually be ensembles of musicians > in performance, but it is nonsense to think this could be > done in any less a structured, or structuring manner, on > the spot by musicians. Must music making practices are in > some ways structured, jazz and improvised music included. > It is whether that produces music which is adventurous and > refreshing, rather than rote and tedium that is the point. > The best jazz and improvised music is not rote and tedium, > the worst can be and sometimes is; I have listened to > both. > > I do not consider that appreciating jazz makes the > appreciation of other music impossible. I would hope that > jazz and improvised music can be understood to add to the > sound materials available to humanity, and that it creates > a world of sound anew. Sorry, I do not hear what I hear in > the best of jazz and improvised music in Bartok or anyone > else. > > I always find it odd when, as did Adorno, discussion of > value in music, or in any other art form, leads one to the > last great composer or painter or whatever being someone > who is either dead or in decline. For Adorno it was > Schvnberg, and Schvnberg before serialism, which Adorno > thought mechanised the process of composition. Thankfully, > the composers and musicians did not take Adorno's > assessments to heart and continued on to create fresh, > engaging and great music which did not supplant the music > of the past. > > Thank you for engaging, > > Allan.
