I use the term metaphor in the broad sense, to encompass analogy, associative, 
comparative, as types of metaphor.  Thus I accept Saul's remark by subsuming it 
under metaphor. 

The as-if metaphor is first in your head. It is the idea of the thing sensed.  
If you make something it is to imitate that idea in your brain (and there is 
always some conscious idea/s, always evolving) whether it's choosing a word or 
color or shape.  So Miller is lost (metaphor).  a 

To say something is as-if, it does not need to be imitative in the sense that 
Miller describes the portrait painting. One could take a bent tin can, or 
almost anything else, including pointing to the empty air, and say, "Here is a 
portrait of Ms. Wolf".  To take one thing for another, including to propose 
something ridiculous as a stand in for another is the very stuff of thought, 
including imaginative or creative thought, I mean creative as going beyond the 
most conventional as-if.   There is no escape from our metaphorical 
consciousness. 

 If we knew enough about the brain functions of other animals, we'd likely 
discover the same process.  This is so simple and obvious, I am amazed that 
Miller doesn't get it.  How can he possibly experience art or, really, anything 
at all without first imagining it,  forming an idea of it; that is,  recalling 
or shaping a metaphor of it in his brain.  I agree that mostly we use 
conventionalized metaphors, those we learn in society, those embedded in words, 
etc., but any painting, certainly, no matter how imitative, even a photograph, 
is a stand in and is therefore a metaphorical proposal of what it purports to 
show.  Going back to Ms. Wolf, a portrait of her, if I cut a big round hole in 
the forehead area of her head, I could claim her as a cousin of anybody I 
choose.  Who?

WC





________________________________
From: Saul Ostrow <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>; Chris  
Miller <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 1:06:05 PM
Subject: Re: inevitable and resolved

Other than metaphor, we also tend to use associative, analogous and
comparative  - thus something may indexed to, be like or comparable to the
look of the  inevitable and resolved - as opposed to being said to represent
it


On 6/13/09 1:36 PM, "Chris Miller" <[email protected]> wrote:

If one were trying to paint (or buy) a portrait of Mrs. Wolff, for example,
and the  portrait was considered finished when one could say "aha - that is
Mrs. Wolff, and nothing could make it any more so" ---- that would seem to me
to be an unequivocal example of "metaphorical thinking" as William has
presented it.

Mrs. Wolf is part of the real world - and the artist  is trying to make
something that will stand-in for her.

But what if someone were also trying to determine whether, at last, a
"painting can present the" ?

Where is the metaphorical thinking ?

What are the "as-if imaginings" ---- and for what, in the real world, are
they
stand-ins ?.

Absent some non-tortuous explanation, this is why I believe that something
other than metaphorical thinking can be involved:

Thinking that tries to achieve and identify a quality without reference to
anything else in the world.(i.e. issues of similarity or stand-in-ability
are
irrelevant).



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