Distortion is abstraction. I said I preferred R. That does not mean my opinion is really correct beyond my reasoning. R is probably the lesser artist to M because people prefer "the agony and ecstasy" to serene harmony when both are equally harmless as in art.
I assume that the point of this list is to discuss aesthetics as a concept. There's little value in our spouting our personal preferences -- no matter how long held or carefully developed -- if we simply insist that others take us on our authority and without need of reasoned argumentation. If you think your subjective perception is above reasoned justification then you are not interested in intellectual discourse. I often find that my personal preferences run against good arguments and I am faced with three choices: to change my opinion, tweak the argument to allow my view, or remain with my beliefs because they feel right. The last choice is outside the realm of discourse. The second to last choice is what happens here a lot, mostly to save face I suppose. As for the first choice, few of us have ever agreed to change our views because the arguments are convincing. WC ----- Original Message ---- From: Boris Shoshensky <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 2:41:21 PM Subject: Re: is aesthetics dead? It is good for discourse read with attention, no bias and not twist my words. I never said that M abstracted the body. I said distorted certain way only he could. I think you said first that R is better painter and I happened agree. Abstracted body in art is a must. Every body in art is abstract. I love R and his abstractions are beautiful. Distortion is a part of expressive style and only one of many ways to abstract. Re spirituality. We don't measure it we feel it, and we can't explain how the same way when we see lack of it. Yes, mostly unabstracted body by De Andria shows his lack of conceptual sophistication. I feel I have enough experience to express my subjective perception and am not afraid to do so because somebody might be frustrated or disagree. Subjectivity is a part of a creative process in arts. Boris Shoshensky To: [email protected] Subject: Re: is aesthetics dead? Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 07:36:44 -0700 (PDT) How can something immaterial and thus not measurable be proclaimed as if it has been measured? How can one decide that R was the "better painter" and M. the "more sophisticated soul" when those traits are not the same and both are immaterial anyway? The only recourse is opinion; in this case Boris' opinion. He may find a slew of other opinions both current and recorded from the past to bolster his opinion but absent actual measuring and without an objective way to link quality to measure, he has no objective way to support his triumphal decision. He tries to say that M's abstraction of the body proves his "more sophisticated soul" but how? Does the un-abstracted body prove an "unsophisticated soul"? And what of R's abstraction? His "dynamic" mode of composition, which links different shapes in illusory space by means of lines that organize a two-dimensional pictorial harmony is certainly sophisticated and had enormous influence down to today. Does that lessen his "soul"? Such questions can be asked ad-infinitum and go only to ad-absurdum. There is no rebuttal to them because one cannot measure something immaterial as if it were. How long is the soul? How wide is sophistication? How many exaggerations to the measurable body add up to "the purposely distorted beauty" of something. Whatever the merits of M and R in terms of painterly skills and sophisticated soulfulness, they are the unstable assessments of people who were not M and R. Self-proclamation is socially worthless until confirmed by wider opinion. The only way to measure the immaterial is by some pseudo method; that is, creating a standard (a judgment) and then elucidating its features (also judgments) and then comparing and contrasting evidence (also subjectively selected) to see what matches and what doesn't and then debating ad-nauseum whether or not the standards are correct of the evidence was properly chosen. I would like Boris to support his claims objectively re M and R but there's really no point to that except to urge him to admit he can't without resorting to unique opinion of his own or to the collective and contentious opinions of others. It's fine to resort to opinion. But it's important to show how that opinion is arrived at and by what judgmental standards. It's a matter of persuasion that relies heavily on cultural codes (such as belief in a soul to justify saying "a sophisticated soul"). Most discussion in the humanities and arts is centered on persuasion that relies on opinions and that is fine and good. There are no other options anyway. So, again, I challenge Boris to back up his opinions with some reasoned appeal, some discursive persuasion. But his usual reply is just another personal proclamation, a thunderous and unsupported dictum. Not good enough for me. Not good enough for discourse. wc ----- Original Message ---- From: Boris Shoshensky <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, October 14, 2010 9:16:04 PM Subject: Re: is aesthetics dead? I agree that Raphael is maybe better painter, but M is more sophisticated soul and by the way it is shown in his anatomically purposefully distorted beauty of David. The profound is always stoned in the beginning. Boris Shoshensky To: [email protected] Subject: Re: is aesthetics dead? Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Michelangelo had the personal traits and abilities and opportunities to do what was regarded as suited to the societal "template" for great art during his lifetime.This template was defined by some during his life and as new templates were devised, some of which were modeled and on Michelangelo and his work, more and more ways of contextualizing them with society and history became available. We err if we think Michelangelo was universally admired in his lifetime. His David was stoned upon first being displayed. By societal template I mean a set of socialized codes for art and art judgment. Such templates change over time of course just as society changes (and the historian's job is to trace those changes) but on the whole I think we can say that they change at a different pace than do the "codes" of individuals (which can change quickly or not at all for innumerable reasons). There is no reason to assume that personal codes echo societal codes although they likely do in many instances. I may personally prefer Raphael's paintings over Michelangelo's paintings but it would be difficult for me to claim that Raphael was the better artist if we demand the "polymath" personality as a feature of the most accomplished Renaissance artist. Yes, Michelangelo had specific attributes that few others have, including a handsome face (based on his self-portrait) Lucky for him that the template or code for excellence in his time (and afterwards becoming a model for measuring excellence in other art) happened to be in effect not only during his life but afterwards. There may have been --likely were -- other artists of extraordinary attributes who were excluded by the template. Mostly they are forgotten or known only to specialists and their work is considered minor. People did and do not say they were geniuses. I am claiming that there is no possibility for designating or recognizing genus unless some measure of it is established. How does this "sign" of genius become evident? Does it already exist before one makes it or does it come into
