My claim rests on the assumption that terms such as genius and talent cannot be 
discerned as intrinsic to any object.  We can and do, however, pretend that 
they 
can and then we devise various measures (codes) by which we claim, again 
without 
any inherent evidence, that whatever our measuring identifies is the trait we 
seek. 

Here's an example:  The formalist history of Western art is predicated on the 
identity of style and its evolution over time.  This methodology naturally 
centers on the instances where changes in style occur and then, more 
specifically what those formal changes were and who initiated them. Giotto is 
regarded as a genius artist because he was among the very first and likely the 
most assured artist to renew a rational illusion of pictorial space in 
painting. 
 Thus the measure of genius here is "a renewed way to portray depth on a flat 
surface" and various historical documents from Giotto's time and our 
comparison/contrast with hindsight  point to Giotto as the most significant 
author of that change. Other artists of his time followed his new style but 
since they only imitated him they are not geniuses although a broader measure 
(like refinement of line) might qualify them as talented. There is nothing in 
the artwork, nothing in the line, nothing in the artists, that can be pointed 
to 
as genius aside from the predetermination of the measure (stylistic change). 

Art historians then look for evidence that Giotto's renewed illusionism 
influenced other artists and, lo, they find evidence they seek. Then it occurs 
that one of those artists upped the ante by fogging up the new illusionism with 
obfuscating light and shadow and so there is a new genius.  Thus if genius is 
tied directly to influential stylistic change, then one simply looks for those 
changes in surviving artworks and then one can find the geniuses.  These 
geniuses can be qualitatively ranked by new measures, such as the degree of 
stylistic change they introduced or by other qualities, like personal charm 
(see 
Vasari) or market value (then and now).

So, art history provides artificial templates for genius and then whoever best 
fits the templates, becomes the genius.  The templates are artificial and 
extrinsic to inherent qualities of art or people.  Changing the templates, like 
changing the rules of a game, might produce a different set of geniuses.  That 
is precisely what is going on now in art history.  For example instead of style 
as the foundation of art, now it's cultural patterns, codes, discourses.  New 
templates are being devised that are comfy with the preoccupations of 
contemporary society and are retro-fitted to past artworks and as a result, new 
geniuses will be "discovered".  Move over, Giotto. 

When you say that people often agree on ascriptions of talent and genus, I ask 
if they are agreeing to accept predetermined judgments or have they all come to 
the same judgment by their own study of the evidence (which I claim above, is 
spurious)?  Truth is, the Institutional Theory is the pragmatic theory of 
choice.  We say so and so was/is a genius because some "artworld" authority has 
said it for us. 

The notation of genius or even talent (is that propositional genius?) is 
determined by many different means and I agree that most of them are 
Institutional but nowadays even that is up for grabs and a sort of 
market-defined template is in first place.  More than ever, anyone can 
designate 
the genius and the most respected "objective" proof is in the marketplace where 
money is the measure.  Ask a 100,000 dollars for your kid's latest dabble and 
if 
you get it, the kid's a genius. It's happened. Or better yet, if you can claim 
celebrity of any sort, then make artworks.  You will be a genius because your 
celebrity stands in for quality.  That happens a lot. Imagine, If Henry VIII 
had 
fired Holbein and made his own portraits because he was the greater celebrity 
he 
would by today's standards be a genius artist and Holbein a hack.   Now and 
then 
some new "objective" measures are devised.  Currently, there are a spate of art 
contests with huge money awards which are decided entirely by public vote 
(direct democracy in action).  I suppose the few winners can be deemed geniuses 
to be explained in art discourse.   But is this much different from the 
so-called MacArthur Genius grants which are determined in secret by an unknown 
panel with unknown aims.  So far all their choices have been as predictable in 
terms of elite "institutional"  taste as the new big prize art winners are 
predictable in terms of popular mass taste.  Show me the template and I'll show 
you the geniuses. If there's no template in place, then there's no way to 
determine genius, or talent, or failure either.  There is nothing pre-existing 
about templates, nothing inherent to them, and thus there is nothing inherent 
to 
genius.  One way or another, it's a societal way to organize values which are 
themselves transient and inherently empty.  Ain't it great that there are no 
preordained rules?   
 wc



 


----- Original Message ----
From: Rupert Dasilva <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 12:58:31 PM
Subject: Re: is aesthetics dead?

Your stance is contrary to experience of the way in which the terms 'talent'
and
'genius' are used. People very often agree on both ascriptions of talent or
genius, and
also on the reasons for these ascriptions. It might be the case that these
ascriptions,
and the reasons for them, are not particularly interesting, and this might
even be true
in spite of all the evidence (including the above discussion) that shows
that we are
interested in them. But it is clearly not for 'no reason in particular' that
people use these
terms. Boris is right to ask for a more substantial account of the
circumstances in which
these terms are used.

R



On 10 October 2010 18:44, William Conger <[email protected]> wrote:

> Nothing in particular.  Each person would have his or her own reason.
> wc
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Boris Shoshensky <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 11:24:59 AM
> Subject: Re: is aesthetics dead?
>
> "Nobody's got talent or genius until someone else ascribes it to them".
> wc
>
> What makes someone ascribe it to them?
>
> Boris Shoshensky
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: is aesthetics dead?
> Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 14:30:31 -0700 (PDT)
>
> I think Gissing's point is all wrong.  Just as we can't say that meaning is
> inherent to a word so we can't say that talent is inherent to an artist.
> Talent
> is a quality we ascribe to someone; meaning is an interpretation we ascribe
> to
> a
> word/s.
>
> An artist does something that can be encircled by a context that members of
> a
> group regard as art for various reasons they choose. Talent, genius,
> creativity,
> all those qualitative words are interpretative and descriptive. They don't
> identify anything independent of interpretation.
>
> Further, Gissing's remarks hark back to older romantic notions of the
> artist
> as
> outsider, a different sort of creature, having unique uber-human but
> usually
> troubling traits.  That artist is likened to a mythic mortal who might have
> been
> awarded the magical powers of a god.
>
> In the Renaissance a "cult of genius" arose that claimed the abilities of
> some
> artists were signs of divine gifts, something supernatural, godly and thus
> making those artists superior to other people, putting them on an even
> footing
> at least with their divinely ordained patron-rulers.  The cultish
> honorifics
> had
> a practical benefit that helped to end the artisan tradition and make the
> artist
> more than a tradesman, something of a philosopher-scientist-theologan, akin
> to
> the class of bishops or monarchs.
>
> Truth?
>
> Nobody's got talent or genius until someone else ascribes it to them.
>
> wc
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>

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