Same deal as Paul.  Our insurance covers climbing for ourselves but not for 
others.  If we're working a job for someone else, we sub out the guys on the 
tower and it can get expensive.

> On Jul 4, 2018, at 1:20 PM, [email protected] 
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Chuck, also look into your insurance costs. After being canceled two years in 
> a row for doing tower and rooftop work,
> we found a company to cover us "affordably" but limits that we can't climb 
> for others, limits the number of hours we
> can do tower work in-house, etc.
> 
> If you plan on these guys being a tower crew 100% of the time and sub'ing 
> them out to others, your insurance
> rates my change your cost/benefit analysis.
> 
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 1:08 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>> That is almost a perfect example of this job I need done.  I don’t begrudge 
>> a couple of guys making $1K  for a day of driving and a half day of working. 
>>  Seems like decent money to me.  Even at $75/hour, a 16 hour day comes in at 
>> $1200 per person.  Not unreasonable.  I can supply an employee or two for 
>> pulling on ropes etc.    But 4-10 times that amount are the range of the 
>> quotes I am getting. 
>>  
>> Just trying to calibrate my expectations.  I recently paid about $5K for a 
>> 100’ SSV to be erected.  (I paid for the crane work and we built the 
>> foundations in house). 
>>  
>> Now the same guy wants the same amount to hang a PTP 550 on it and another 
>> tower.  That is where the heartburn is kicking in.  I too have erected 
>> towers.  I know that it is a bit more work than just hanging a small 
>> integrated radio. 
>>  
>> From: Jaime Solorza
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:57 AM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>  
>> I understand as an employer you have to look at cost vs benefit....but tower 
>> climbing is to me different from other Telecom work.  I really don't climb 
>> much anymore and out of the flow as to what folks are charging now.  Did a 
>> job in Midland with son realigning two 11GHz links on water tanks....left El 
>> Paso at 4 am, drove almost 4 hours...worked 6...drove home....I made 800.00 
>> , son 600.00.   Plus Travel and per diem ...some other outfit wanted to 
>> charge them 3000.00.  They hired us again few months later to install new 
>> radio after one got sent to heaven by lightning.. but Midland pays well.  
>> Just don't like it much..no mountains...
>> 
>> Jaime Solorza
>>  
>>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:38 AM <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I realize that but it is not low for a run-of-the- mill telecom tech around 
>>> here
>>> We start them at about $15 and after a few years they will top out around 
>>> $25 if they are still doing install and repair work. 
>>>  
>>> I am trying to illustrate the job costing that I am applying to this 
>>> particular job to judge whether or not these quotes are reasonable. 
>>>  
>>> If 4 man is the law, and if it takes twice the amount of time I am guessing 
>>> (which happens all too frequently) and if they have to drive a half a day 
>>> and stay overnight, then I can see it.  But my heart says that 4 men is 
>>> overkill and it should not take that much time etc. 
>>>  
>>> I am totally double minded on this because I quit doing lowball bids years 
>>> ago.  If I don’t make good money on a job I pass it over.
>>>  
>>> “for the labourer is worthy of his hire”
>>>  
>>> From: Jaime Solorza
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:29 AM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>>  
>>> 25 an hour is low for tower work
>>> 
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>  
>>>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:13 AM <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Let’s say I pay a guy that I have  sent to Comtrain $25/hour. 
>>>> I pay a few benefits, modest health insurance etc. 
>>>> To not lose money, I have to bill one of my other companies $39.50.
>>>>  
>>>> I have a very comprehensive spreadsheet that calculates every jot and 
>>>> tittle for loaded rates. 
>>>> It even includes the expense of calculating the billing etc.
>>>>  
>>>> If anyone wants a copy  send me an off list request.  I don’t think I can 
>>>> attach spreadsheets to the email.
>>>>  
>>>> So, lets round up.  $40/hour is my out of pocket. 
>>>> Say I need two of these guys to hang the radios.  $80/hour.
>>>>  
>>>> I know I can climb that tower, hang the radio, secure the CAT5 and be on 
>>>> the ground in 2 hours.
>>>> Have done similar jobs many many times as a younger man. 
>>>>  
>>>> Then drive for a half hour (let’s round up to 1 hours) and then do the 
>>>> same at the other site.  5 hours total so far.
>>>> Then say we have to go back to the first site and tweak the aiming.  6 
>>>> hours into the job.
>>>>  
>>>> 6 x 80 is $480  My out of pocket payroll expense to hang a pair of $600 
>>>> radios. 
>>>> Perhaps there is some OSHA rule that requires 4 guys.  I don’t know about 
>>>> this rule.... but two people have mentioned it now.
>>>> OK, my expense is not $1200. 
>>>>  
>>>> Let’s say I want send my guys to do this job for someone else and make a 
>>>> 50% margin, then I would be billing $2400.  
>>>> And pocketing half. 
>>>>  
>>>> Still far less than the quotes and estimates I have received. 
>>>> I realize everyone has to drive in from somewhere and they have to be paid 
>>>> while they drive.   But still...
>>>> Where is that rule that you must have 4 guys on a tower crew?
>>>> What is a fair margin when renting our your employees to others. 
>>>> What is the cost of sending someone to Comtrain these days?
>>>>  
>>>> From: Chuck McCown
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:15 PM
>>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>>>  
>>>> I figure less than 3 hours per tower, in reality it should be one hour per 
>>>> tower.  So 6 man hours.  Of course there would be transport time to and 
>>>> from.  But if my own employees were doing it I would have less than $240 
>>>> in payroll expense. 
>>>>  
>>>> From: Jaime Solorza
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 9:34 PM
>>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>>>  
>>>> Too busy to help you...but 4500.00 is more or less what son and I would 
>>>> charge...
>>>> 
>>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>>  
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:28 PM <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>  
>>>>> From: Trey Scarborough
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:15 PM
>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>>>>  
>>>>> Check with LRC 
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.lrcwireless.com/ 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 7/2/2018 8:31 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>>>>> Near Innis Louisiana. 
>>>>>> (NW of Baton Rouge, SE or Alexandria).
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> From: Colin Stanners
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 7:27 PM
>>>>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> $5000 and they don't even need to mount big dishes or take out the 
>>>>>> rubber tape? Incredible.... sounds like it's their "we don't want your 
>>>>>> business, go away" pricing. Maybe post the area and see if any AFMUG 
>>>>>> members are around?
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:23 PM, Chuck McCown <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Integrated radios/antenna. 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> From: Colin Stanners
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 7:16 PM
>>>>>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> How big are the dishes?
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Those seem really high compared to around here.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Chuck McCown <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have a pair of PTP550s to hang and wire. 
>>>>>>>> Long away from my base of operations.  About 100’ up on both ends.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Have received two quotes to hang and aim:
>>>>>>>> $5000
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> $8000   ($14,000 if it goes to 2 days)
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Not sure why they think this needs 4 guys to do. 
>>>>>>>> I am too old to do it myself, just don’t have the leg 
>>>>>>>> strength/endurance to be safe.  
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 10x the cost of the radios to hang and aim???
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> 
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