Their radio tech said that the path with the passive repeater would have issues when there is fog. But I don’t think I have ever seen fog in that area.
From: Ken Hohhof Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2019 1:57 PM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium Did they say which Aviat model they ordered? Aviat says they have a high power ODU that can do +39dBm. But if Frontier wanted best range with no regard to cost or power consumption, they should have ordered the +35 dBm PTP820C-HP from Cambium, not the PTP820S. If you’re going to do a shootout, make it apples-to-apples. In general Aviat has newer radios with features and specs that exceed Cambium’s current offering, like 4096QAM and SFP+, probably more, I haven’t done a detailed comparison. They look like nice radios. It’s just not clear what the Cambium radios were supposed to do but didn’t. Is this just buyers remorse / they ordered the wrong thing, or is Cambium actually failing to meet one of their specs? Or maybe Cambium (or a distributor) ran the path through Link Planner for them and made a product recommendation and Frontier ran with it. >From the location, I assume this is not a rain fade situation? If it was by >me, I’d say yeah, everybody knows that climate change has made the rain models >obsolete, better knock off a least one “9”, given that we’re having 100 year >rains every couple weeks now. I will say the IP20/PTP820 doesn’t have the friendliest menus in the world. If Frontier was having trouble getting support, it’s entirely possible they have something configured wrong. I was reminded of this the other day when I had to log into a SAF 24 GHz radio I had not touched in 8 years, and wow, they have a nice GUI. From: AF <[email protected]> On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2019 1:58 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium If Frontier gave them a fair shot at it, this ought to be a valuable shoot out. From: Tim Hardy Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2019 12:44 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium The radios were the 820s which is the Ceragon IP20. Sent from my iPad On May 18, 2019, at 2:17 PM, <[email protected]> <[email protected]> wrote: No idea, but I sure never had support issues with Cambium other than perhaps a bit of an initial delay. From: Bill Prince Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2019 11:44 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium I have not read an y of the backup material, but are the "Cambium" radios actually the re-badged Ceregon radios? bp<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> On 5/18/2019 8:16 AM, Chuck McCown wrote: I would like to see a comparison between the Cambium and Aviat radios. The major complaint during the hearing was that Cambium was not providing support. But when they said the Aviat was magic and did what Cambium could not I really had some heartburn. And that was on the direct line, not the passive link. They wrote a pretty big check with their mouth during the hearing and they expect Aviat to cash it. By this time next week the magic Aviat will be installed on that passive path and provide magic once again... Not sure how I am going to be able to get any feedback on this. I suppose the lawyer that represents the customer can check with Frontier and see how it is going. He is a friend of mine and will most likely tell me what Frontier is saying. Of course they will say it is going well. I used to know the techs at Moab, but I am sure they are going to say it is fixed even if it fails miserably. The end user’s lack of dial tone will be telling. From: Ken Hohhof Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2019 7:05 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium Seems like the radio is being used as a scapegoat. If it’s an RF path issue, there’s only so much magic the electronics can do. Like a golfer blaming his clubs for his bad score. I don’t suppose they explained what features or specs of the Aviat radios are going to fix the problem, or do they even know what the problem is? If they just need a few dB more fade margin, then yes, higher xmt power or better rcv sensitivity or something like that could help. A little. Stuff like 2048QAM or 4096QAM are going to increase the throughput under ideal conditions and do nothing for performance under adverse conditions. And the thing about fading is we’re talking huge dB numbers, which is hard to overcome with antenna gain or system margin where just a couple dB is difficult and expensive. Maybe this is what the future looks like with all this government funding and accountability for meeting specs. If you screw up, start looking around for a vendor to blame, and insist they take the equipment back because it was bought with CAF money. Good points about the narrow beams and the use of a passive repeater. It wouldn’t take much atmospheric effects or tower twist to affect the RF path. It’s also hard to believe they never had fading issues on the legacy equipment. I remember working for a telecom equipment manufacturer in the 80’s and common wisdom was you couldn’t submit any new equipment for telco evaluation during summer or “the fading season” because it was all hands on deck at the telcos to keep their long haul microwave links from dropping. I don’t know what manual tweaking was involved, but apparently it was a big issue. Just try binoculars on a long microwave path on a hot day and see what the atmosphere does to the image of that distant tower. Now imagine that’s a billboard and you have to make a bank shot off it. From: AF mailto:[email protected] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium A motion was just made to revoke Frontier’s certificate if they cannot achieve 99.99% uptime/availability with the new Aviat radio. Wow, 15’ dishes warp in the wind, towers twist. The beamwidth .35 degrees. That is like a laser beam on this thing. If anyone with Aviat is listening, they need to give this deployment some extra focus or tell Frontier that they may have a problem using 15’ antennas and a passive repeater. There are lots of people watching. They should also true up the license. From: [email protected] Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 12:31 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium They should run a fiber up to the passive repeater location. Only 1 km. Or put an active repeater there. But again, this is Fronter. From: dave Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 12:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium yeah thats huge! Why not do a spatial diversity to compensate for such a large dish for distance? I did a 71 mile shot with cambium sub 6Ghz using 4x 4' andrew dishes at each end with very stable shots. Of course real estate would be a factor. Diversity requires some spacing between dishes. I also converted an old microwave 12' dish for a tv station to spatial diversity and been in operation for 8yrs. <image001.jpg> On 5/17/19 1:20 PM, [email protected] wrote: 4.6 Meter antennas. 15’ Wow. 48.3 dBi From: [email protected] Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 12:18 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium Thanks Looks like Frontier did not update their license ... 11 Ghz Still shows Alcate MDR-8611-135 radio. 16 km on one side 1 km on the other side of the billboard. That seems to be the requirement for billboards, very short leg on one side. From: Cassidy B. Larson Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 12:14 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium Maybe this one? https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/licensePathsSum.jsp?pageNumToReturn=1&licKey=963392 Contact is Frontier.. -- ---- Cassidy B. Larson CTO - InfoWest, Inc. Voice: 435-773-6073 [email protected] ---- On May 17, 2019, at 12:03 PM, <[email protected]> <[email protected]> wrote: Cambium is getting torn up at a Utah Public Service Commission hearing this morning. Frontier installed a pair of Cambium something between Bald Mesa and Castle Valley Utah in December to change out a TDM radio. Bad fading on Cambium. A resort ranch filed a complaint and I am listening to he hearing this morning. Frontier is complaining that they got no support from Cambium. The radios would work for 3 or 4 days and then troubles would come again over and over. Frontier changed out the Cambium radio in March. They removed Cambium and said they have removed them as a vendor company wide. They changed to Aviat. Supposedly the new radios fixed everything. Typing this as I am listening to the hearing. The ranch still had some problems after changing to Aviat. Frontier says that the the new radios fixed everything. The new radio has not had any drop outs. This is a two hop system. They are changing out cambium on the second leg with Aviat soon. Passive repeater system on the second leg. Fog causes fading. Drops modulation down to low QAM levels. Frontier claims the second Aviat radio will make this network flawless. When asked what that means Frontier answered 99.99% Frontier is in process to take action against Cambium. CAF money was used to buy the Cambium radios. Second leg is scheduled for commissioning next week. Someone should take a look at this license and tell me the details on that passive repeater side. I am curious as to the leg distances. Too lazy to look it up. Frontier Telephone Company or whatever they are called now. Moab to Bald Mesa. Bald Mesa to Castle Valley. Passive on the second leg. 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