The original Usenet email had the actual path to a major server (ATT, UCB, UCSB, etc... ) in the beginning every email address, pretty hard not to know the path of the users back then...

On 3/12/23 13:01, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
Internet email isn't anonymous,  never was.  Even in the early days.  There has always been a multitude of ways to track email back to the origin server.  And there has been a multitude of ways to obfuscate but not hide that origin.

Any anonymity you may have is based on the origin server either not knowing or not being willing to disclose that information.  Every email received generally will be able to be tracked back to the origin server,  with the caveat that sometimes the owner of the origin server will be unable to be determined since any random person can spin up a server, send mail,  and drop off the planet.

Note that spf and dmarc don't validate the user.   They only validate that the email originated from servers known to send mail for a given domain and provide some cryptographic assurance of that fact. It's a way for legitimate companies to ensure that email that appears to come from them actually comes from them and for companies like google to be able to reject what appear to be emails with spoofed sender information.



On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 3:17 PM Jan-GAMs <j.vank...@grnacres.net <mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>> wrote:

    Because 45 years ago my company was connected to the rest of itself
    via the arpanet and they promised us on a stack of bibles that those
    who used the email system would always remain anonymous.  Of course,
    then later they published a 5,000 page phone book with all our
    emails associated with our work addresses for over 50,000
    employees.  I printed it out and put it in a 3-ring binder and put
    it in the computer room where the other users could use it.  Back
    then we had these machines called an Alto and each user had this big
    plastic cartridge with a huge disk in it.  If I recall, this
    generated a lawsuit, because they promised us that no-one would ever
    know our email address associated with our work phone, work address,
    etc... .  It wasn't true then and it still isn't true.  But that
    can't make it, the promise, unsaid.

    On 3/12/23 09:47, Steve Jones wrote:
    wtf, where did you get that email was designed for anonymity?

    This is getting to some Qanon level right here

    On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 11:40 AM Jan-GAMs <j.vank...@grnacres.net
    <mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>> wrote:

        good question Forrest. mail.com <http://mail.com> provides
        several hundred domains to choose from and use and easily
        works with thunderbird as well as most other email reader
        applications.  Plus it's free.  All Google is doing is
        monopolizing email.  Email was originally designed to be used
        by arpanet to be free/open/anonymous and to still be
        functional even after a global war.  Using spf/dkim removes
        the anonymous.  I don't think that's right.  I also think that
        since you have just shown me how easy it is to send fake mail,
        it also seems it could be about as easy to add a fake spf/dkim
        into it with a little more python scripting.  End result is
        now google knows exactly who you are and who you're sending to
        and the spam filters are broken because now we'll have
        verified spam mail.

        Who are you?  Who do you know?  What is the content? Where is
        your privacy?

        Problems with the ease of Telnetting spoof mail: I do not know
        anyone who has their very own homemade mail server, plus, I do
        not know anyone who has actually built and setup successfully
        a homebrew DIY email server.  I do know lots of people who
        have tried to do so, including myself. It's way easier to buy
        it as a service and then it gets expensive.  Another problem
        is most of the free email servers won't allow users to send
        more than 10 emails at a time and you have to wait up to an
        hour before you can send 10 more.  That's why I tried to build
        my own, just so I could send customers the monthly billing
        automatically. I even hired a programmer who said he had done
        it before, he failed.

        On 3/12/23 07:32, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
        I can insert a spoofed email using only telnet to port 25 on
        a mail server in about 30 seconds not counting the time it
        takes to type the message itself. Basically you telnet to
        port 25, issue four commands (HELO, MAIL FROM, RCPT TO,
        DATA), and then type the message itself.

        Spoofing email in an automated way only takes some basic
        python skills.   Like I could teach anyone with a bit of
computer experience how to do it in about an hour or so. This python script can run on anything that runs python,
        which is pretty much any general purpose computing device.

        So it is ridiculously cheap and easy to spoof email.

        The reason it is so easy is that email by itself has zero
        authentication of origin and an open, plaintext, protocol.

        The purpose of spf/dkim/dmarc is to add a level of
        authentication information to at least be able to reject some
        spoofed emails.

        What that Google bounce says is that there is something in
        the mail.com <http://mail.com> email which doesn't match the
        spf/dmarc/dkim records. I'm not 100٪ sure but it seems to not
        be happy with the linuxmail.org <http://linuxmail.org> domain
        being inside the email record.

        How are the mail.com <http://mail.com> emails being
        generated?  Are they through a web server client on mail.com
        <http://mail.com>?  If not, where?  And are the emails from a
        mail.com <http://mail.com> address or are you just using
        mail.com <http://mail.com> to relay mail from another domain?



        On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 1:20 AM Jan-GAMs
        <j.vank...@grnacres.net <mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>> wrote:

            I can't recall ever using telnet for anything recent,
            it's ancient, doesn't work with anything much in todays
            world.  How would this be useful in sending email?

            On 3/11/23 21:36, Steve Jones wrote:
            telnet is fancy expensive equipment needed to spoof
            email? Ive never paid for telnet

            On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 10:48 PM Jan-GAMs
            <j.vank...@grnacres.net <mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>>
            wrote:

                You see, that's exactly where we part ways.  Engulf
                and Devour was the villain corporation in the Silent
                Movie by Mel Brooks.  Every time I saw that movie, I
                couldn't help but think of Microsoft and Google
                slicing up the planet for themselves.  Gives me
                diarrhea just thinking about those two companies.

                You have to have some pretty fancy expensive
                equipment just to spoof email, so why bother?  It's
                not the little folk who are doing the spoofing.  So
                when they get all us little folk passing on all our
                secrets of our little lives.  Then the spoofers will
                start using fake SPF/DKIM and then we're right back
                to as much or more SPAM as ever.  Problem will be
                worse than ever.

                On 3/11/23 18:07, Darin Steffl wrote:
                I was curious so found that Gmail started requiring
                emails sent to personal Gmail to have SPF or DKIM
                enabled or emails would be rejected or sent to
                spam. Good for them to drag the bad email hosts
                along for the ride in preventing spam.

                These prevention measures are ridiculously easy to
                implement so I don't have any patience for email
                hosts who don't set them up. If you can't handle
                simple tasks, outsource things to the big boys.

                
https://support.google.com/a/answer/174124?hl=en#:~:text=Important%3A%20Starting%20November%202022%2C%20new,to%20verify%20they're%20authenticated
 
<https://support.google.com/a/answer/174124?hl=en#:~:text=Important%3A%20Starting%20November%202022%2C%20new,to%20verify%20they're%20authenticated>.

                On Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 7:33 PM Matt Hopkins
                <mhopk...@hunterfiber.com
                <mailto:mhopk...@hunterfiber.com>> wrote:

                    Do you use any Microsoft products? If you use
                    Windows and care about data security then
                    you've already failed. I find Microsoft the
                    most deplorable, but I'm only one guy. I have
                    to pick my battles. I refuse to use Microsoft
                    (anything) but we use Gmail at work and it's
                    more or less flawless. We have had some people
                    report they can't reach us but the resolution
                    is always what has already been mentioned here.
                    Google made DKIM/SPF mandatory I want to say
                    just a few months ago but many of the smaller
                    mail providers do not have it set up yet.

                    On Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:49 PM Darin Steffl
                    <darin.ste...@mnwifi.com
                    <mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>> wrote:

                        Jan,

                        Most of the links you shared aren't of
                        Google being hacked, but people being
                        scammed/phished. Tricking a user into
                        sharing their login info means the user was
                        scammed, not that google was hacked. ONE
                        link you shared says less than 24 gmails in
                        Iran were hacked somehow. None of your
                        links share that google has had a massive
                        data breach at any time. That's not to say
                        it can't/won't happen but there's been no
                        big hacks at Google as far as I can remember.

                        I stand by my claim that you're being
                        paranoid. I promise you that mail.com
                        <http://mail.com> or hosting your own email
                        is far less secure and more easily hacked
                        than Google is. Do you have thousands of
                        engineers working to keep your data secure?
                        That answer is NO. I am not delusional
                        enough to think that hosting my own Linux
                        server for email will be more secure than
                        Google. There's no way I can outsmart
                        hackers, keep updated on hourly or daily
                        updates and patches, etc. Nor do I want to
                        do that when I can outsource to a company
                        that does it much better than I do.

                        I don't host a single server for our WISP
                        in 11 years in business and I won't be
                        starting today. The cloud is the future and
                        keeps me hands off on servers and software.
                        If there's a problem, it's someone else's
                        job to fix it and my only job is to report
                        the issue. What if I'm on vacation and I
                        had one or more servers that failed? Now
                        that's my job to fix things while I'm
                        supposed to be off the clock. I don't need
                        that kind of stress in my life so I refuse
                        to host any servers that are mission
                        critical to my business. The only thing
                        resembling a server would be our Preseem
                        appliance but we have backup OSPF routes
                        around it in case that fails.

                        Our billing system is Azotel and they have
                        hosted it in the cloud for us since we
                        started 11 years ago. Total downtime in 11
                        years is under 1 hour. Not every cloud
                        service is that reliable. They handle the
                        multiple backups and securing of the
                        servers too. Slack, for example, has
                        probably had 12 hours of downtime or subpar
                        performance in the 5 years we've used it
                        but it still was an issue I didn't have to
                        fix myself.

                        On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 2:31 PM Steve Jones
                        <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com
                        <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

                            I like dmarc since you get to dictate
                            the strictness and get reports on your
                            overall deliverability

                            On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:44 PM Darin
                            Steffl <darin.ste...@mnwifi.com
                            <mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>> wrote:

                                Jan,

                                I don't recall any hacks or data
                                breaches to Google at all. I've
                                seen plenty of other platforms with
                                breaches like t-mobile but Google
                                is pretty secure. I think you're
                                acting a little paranoid in
                                protecting your phone number. I can
                                pay some online service and get
                                your home address, phone numbers,
                                and social security number if I
                                wanted to. This information that
                                you think is very secure is almost
                                public knowledge for a fee.

                                As others have said, DKIM/SPF are
                                industry standards, not Google, and
                                they're pretty old at this point.
                                DMARC is newer, to me at least, in
                                the last several years so not every
                                platform gives much weight to this
                                but DKIM and SPF is a must nowadays
                                for any email provider.

                                On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 4:03 PM Josh
                                Baird <joshba...@gmail.com
                                <mailto:joshba...@gmail.com>> wrote:

                                    DKIM/SPF/DFMARC aren't "made-up
                                    standards" from Google.

                                    On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 4:31 PM
                                    Jan-GAMs
                                    <j.vank...@grnacres.net
                                    <mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>> wrote:

                                        I don't see how you come to
                                        the conclusion that my paid
                                        for mail service is
                                        supposed to have recently
                                        imposed made-up standards
                                        from google that comply
                                        only with google as some
                                        sort of long-standing
                                        standard. It's a recent
                                        standard imposed by
                                        google.  And I'm never
                                        going to willingly give
                                        google my phone number so
                                        that when they get hacked
                                        again the hackers will have
                                        my email and my phone
                                        number. Why don't I just
                                        broadcast on some public
                                        website my social security
                                        number too? Yeah, tiktok or
                                        twitter, give them my phone
                                        number, ssi, home address,
                                        all my emails along with my
                                        real name. Because when you
                                        give google your phone
                                        number, they now have
                                        exactly who you are and
                                        access to all your private
                                        info.  How many times in
                                        the last couple years has
                                        google been hacked?
                                        Constantly!  I am not going
                                        to freely give this shit to
                                        them.

                                        Well, I'm wrong, you're
                                        right.  When I bought the
                                        phone, google forced me
                                        into an email address as
                                        part of using the phone.  I
                                        never use that email and I
                                        refuse to login to anything
                                        using that email. Other
                                        than that I don't know how
                                        to tell them to sit on a
                                        sharp stick and twirl.

                                        On 3/10/23 12:02, Steve
                                        Jones wrote:
                                        if you had followed your
                                        email providers
                                        instructions, you
                                        wouldnt have created your
                                        own problems.

                                        spam is floating score
                                        based.
                                        bulk/public/free/spamhost
                                        email providers have high
                                        scores to start. proper
                                        spf loweres it, lack of
                                        dkim raises it, lack of
                                        dmarc raises it, content
                                        cn raise it, all the IPs
                                        in the mail chain can
                                        raise it.

                                        Thats why youre
                                        responsible for doing your
                                        part to increase your
                                        deliverability. If you
                                        were sending a business
                                        correspondence you might
                                        go as far as sending it
                                        certified mail, becaus
                                        eyou want deliverability.
                                        But if you didnt go that
                                        far, you wouldnt put the
                                        correspondence in an
                                        envelope that looks like
                                        dish network advertising
                                        because it would be
                                        discarded as junk mail,
                                        you wouldnt put it an odd
                                        shaped envelope that can
                                        get stuck in the sorting
                                        machines, you wouldnt put
                                        phrase like "sperm
                                        burglar" on the exterior,
                                        youd put it in a business
                                        class envelope with
                                        windows and clearly
                                        visible address marking, a
                                        proper return address, etc.

                                        Weve been managing
                                        deliverability with these
                                        types of methods since
                                        before emails. and even
                                        that changed over time.

                                        On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at
                                        1:50 PM Jan-GAMs
                                        <j.vank...@grnacres.net
                                        <mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>> wrote:

                                            So, since grnacres
                                            doesn't have dkim or
                                            dmarc records, they
                                            should be getting
                                            bounced like the
                                            mail.com
                                            <http://mail.com>
                                            records too. I don't
                                            have any control over
                                            the mail servers.  I
                                            rent the service
                                            "easymail" along with
                                            the domain name from
                                            easydns. You know, it
                                            sounds to me more like
                                            google is a terrorist
                                            organization stamping
                                            on the competition
                                            just because they can
                                            get away with it. They
                                            make shit up, and
                                            terrorize those whom
                                            they want to force
                                            into compliance with
                                            their made-up
                                            bullshit. Next they're
                                            going to be asking for
                                            money

                                            Where is the
                                            anti-trust people when
                                            you need them?

                                            On 3/10/23 10:55,
                                            Steve Jones wrote:
                                            grnacres.net
                                            <http://grnacres.net>
                                            doesnt have dkim nor
                                            a dmarc record. Thats
                                            bad domain
                                            deliverability
                                            practice, nothing to
                                            do with the mailhost
                                            perse, but if
                                            mail.com
                                            <http://mail.com>
                                            doesnt support dkim,
                                            its a trash mail host
                                            like sherweb. Cant
                                            blame recipient mail
                                            servers when the root
                                            issue is the sending
                                            server isnt current.
                                            Its like getting
                                            pissed that somebody
                                            doesnt get
                                            communications you
                                            sent out by telegraph

                                            On Fri, Mar 10, 2023
                                            at 12:49 PM Steve
                                            Jones
                                            <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com 
<mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

                                                X-Received: by 
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bk25-20020a170906b0d900b008af35190ea1mr29983208ejb.57.1678462982507;
                                                         Fri, 10 Mar 2023 
07:43:02 -0800 (PST)
                                                ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; 
t=1678462982; cv=none;
                                                         d=google.com  
<http://google.com>; s=arc-20160816;
                                                         
b=bJKHFyjF+9UzBXciF4y3cYBJwrgmwap9OQ3AsQpf2nOFXGkTbLP4C0qHnlLFHXPcA5
                                                          
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jfEM9U9v6Wc6ORTM1FaDpf5Lp9kw8+8gZwnpXwXqFX4mb8gxYt+hZCPJm+kDipw/lDr3
                                                          bhLA==
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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com  <http://google.com>; 
s=arc-20160816;
                                                         
h=content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:content-language:to
                                                          
:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id;
                                                         
bh=IehNk68dy6Xm43VADrOc3Wts/VQhOY9VIh8QjaijTk8=;
                                                         
b=NyqdCYZBzsrNlw9g7CPu4CfeQy64PQOMwX8TEIFWlUxO7XScd6qJ5xAmPDrypL8w2e
                                                          
/h4c7ONmrtQsk65hcKCBSJxq4sztWtnPNbv9HZ2VBdC6R/JGcUovOQ5syUTVRAaGoGyg
                                                          
6quG7biEF/Sud2xX/FBh1gMx50IFKJnscAlxCqvWnWzI5C01HgPhIT9hVh3Plz2YjWHQ
                                                          
hgdmHROdvAdaX6uEl3nz7l4ojOhValcTQDuIakI9ydlRN2QZT12hL1OWX71MpeoGvVMA
                                                          
jmEKbqXHlTu8rWPYvmL0M3Nx0V+oWCnCINPPYL1Pxu0Ob575PZS4DBo1hQE7tozljWxT
                                                          avNg==
                                                ARC-Authentication-Results: 
i=1;mx.google.com  <http://mx.google.com>;
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<http://google.com>: domain ofj.vank...@grnacres.net  <mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net> 
 designates 64.68.200.34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=j.vank...@grnacres.net  
<mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>
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<mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>>
                                                Received: frommailout.easymail.ca  
<http://mailout.easymail.ca>  (mailout.easymail.ca  
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<http://mx.google.com>  with ESMTPS id 
p5-20020a1709066a8500b008d490a104b2si49101ejr.523.2023.03.10.07.43.02
                                                         for <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com  
<mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>>
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cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
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07:43:02 -0800 (PST)
                                                Received-SPF: pass (google.com  
<http://google.com>: domain ofj.vank...@grnacres.net  
<mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>  designates 64.68.200.34 as permitted sender) 
client-ip=64.68.200.34;
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<http://google.com>: domain ofj.vank...@grnacres.net  <mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net> 
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                                                Content-Language: en-US
                                                From: Jan-GAMs <j.vank...@grnacres.net  
<mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>>
                                                Subject: hellody
                                                Content-Type: text/plain; 
charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
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                                                On Fri, Mar 10,
                                                2023 at 12:47 PM
                                                Steve Jones
                                                <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com 
<mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

                                                    nope, this
                                                    gmail account
                                                    is standard
                                                    free account.
                                                    Im probably
                                                    special cause
                                                    all my
                                                    communications get routed 
through the FBI servers for my online antics


                                                    On Fri, Mar
                                                    10, 2023 at
                                                    12:33 PM
                                                    Jan-GAMs
                                                    <j.vank...@grnacres.net 
<mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>> wrote:

                                                        it was a
test. Only the
                                                        ones
                                                        addressed
                                                        to you
                                                        went
through. The
                                                        others
                                                        tested,
bounced. Your
                                                        address
                                                        is
                                                        different
somehow. You
                                                        mentioned
                                                        your
                                                        gmail is
                                                        a
                                                        paid-for
                                                        account,
                                                        the
                                                        others
                                                        that
                                                        bounced
                                                        were the
                                                        free-gmail type accounts one gets by 
logging into google.  The emails were sent from mail.com <http://mail.com> and from my own 
business accounts.  The business ones went through and the mail.com <http://mail.com> ones 
bounced except for the one sent to you.  I picked 4 gmail addresses and sent them out,  all of 
the ones sent from the mail.com <http://mail.com> got bounced except yours. What makes you 
so special?

                                                        On
                                                        3/10/23
                                                        09:14,
                                                        Steve
                                                        Jones wrote:
                                                        i got
                                                        your
                                                        spam
                                                        emails
                                                        this
                                                        morning


                                                        On Fri,
                                                        Mar 10,
                                                        2023 at
                                                        11:04 AM
                                                        <dmmoff...@gmail.com 
<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

                                                            Apparently nobody 
on gmail has noticed

                                                            *From:* AF 
<af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of 
*Jan-GAMs
                                                            *Sent:* Friday, 
March 10, 2023 10:32 AM
                                                            *To:* af@af.afmug.com 
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
                                                            *Subject:* Re: 
[AFMUG] mail servers

                                                             All
                                                            mail.com 
<http://mail.com> users cannot send you email.  How many other's are blocked as 
well? Oblivion, must be sweet.

                                                            On
                                                            3/9/23 20:14, Darin 
Steffl wrote:

                                                                Gmail is the 
best. Been using them for our business since 2012. Virtually no issues at all 
aside from a handful of short outages over the last 11 years.

                                                                It's hands off, 
costs very little, and I've NEVER needed to contact them for support. We also 
use Google drive and their version of office apps in the cloud. We don't store 
any files locally at all. All business docs are at Google and they're safe 
there and they handle the backups.

                                                                I don't see any 
advantage to hosting local email on your own server. It's not worth your time. 
My time is worth $550/hr roughly when looking at net profit so spending even 
one hour a year trying to manage or fix my own email server would cost me more 
than what I pay Google.

                                                                We're 
grandfathered in and think we get 10 free users for gsuite and I pay to upgrade 
storage to 100gb on 2-3 users so we pay less than $60 a year to Google for 
everything. Dirt cheap and great peace mind.

                                                                This is 
relating to our internal business use. For customer email, we never offered it 
and never will. Just recommend a free Gmail account and go live your best life 
not having to support email.

                                                                On Thu, Mar 9, 2023, 8:47 
PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:

                                                                    O365 
handles SMTP relay for scanners and such really well, we just dealt with it a 
bunch. authenticated IP. I dont scan to a flatbed because the Edsel was before 
my time :-)

                                                                    On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 
1:03 PM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:

                                                                        I 
prefer to have it in house for the 10-20 email addresses it serves for 
employees and other business email addresses.  It is free that way and we don’t 
have to worry about anything else.  But for some reason the server hangs and 
needs to get rebooted, usually about the same time each day.

                                                                        Google 
got difficult, especially for email chains and other things so we stopped using 
them some time ago.  For example, our scanner stopped being able to send emails 
due to something gmail did.

                                                                        
*From:*Steve Jones

                                                                        
*Sent:*Thursday, March 9, 2023 11:24 AM

                                                                        
*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

                                                                        
*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] mail servers

                                                                        How 
much is your time worth. The free internal server is costing you this. We are 
still using rackspace for subscriber mail and our office emails since its same 
domain and a pita to set up split routing for the mail. The cost of our mail is 
covered by the folks who have dropped service but wanted to keep their email, 
we actually make a tidy profit to cover any administrative stuff.

                                                                        for my 
business I use google. 6 bucks a month per user. The way I look at it is if im 
not making 6 bucks per guy a month I have bigger problems than my email. Im a 
nerd, 20 years ago dicking around with email servers would have been a blast. 
but now its like maintaining a battery powered inverter just so i can still use 
my corded drill. I can, it will work, its not that complicated, but its 
nonetheless a dumb waste of time.

                                                                        dealing 
with hosting email servers is a total waste of any resources unless your 
monetizing it. too large an attack vector

                                                                        On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 
at 10:18 AM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> 
wrote:

                                                                            It 
is only for our own company email.  No customers on it.



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