Bunch of people use Freeside on some good sized companies... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Dec 9, 2015 5:14 PM, "Vlad Sedov" <[email protected]> wrote:
> is it just me, or does the rest of the ISP world just looks at you like > you're retarded when you mention freeside? > > Sure, it's not 100% bug-free, but it's constantly developed and updated. > There is a commercial installation option, as well as a simple DIY route > using a canned VM, or, if you have a reasonable amount of linux/perl > skills, you can just install it yourself (which is what we did ten years > ago). > Freeside works well enough for a several thousand sub ISP, and includes > all the features you would expect in an ISP billing system -- ticketing, > reports, provisioning, self-service, etc etc.. > > cheers > > vlad > > > On 12/9/2015 4:04 PM, Darin Steffl wrote: > > Brett, > > After reading over this thread thoroughly, I don't think you understand > how great your life would be if you paid the small amount that one of these > billing/customer management systems cost. Wispmon, VISP, Azotel, powercode, > Sonar, etc. The cost is nearly nothing and it saves you TIME. What is your > time valued at? I value my time between $150-200 if someone wants me to do > the work personally. With the time that Azotel saves us today with only > using a handful of their features, it more than pays for itself in labor > costs. We will probably look at Sonar once it is more finished and utilize > even more of the features, saving even more hours every month. I'd say for > every $1,000 a month we spend on a billing system, we'll save at least > $2,000 in labor costs every month and it will help us collect money much > faster and not give out free internet to no pays. > > You are not thinking straight if you think you're going to develop a FREE > billing system that does everything you want accurately without bugs that > need to be fixed over time. You have upfront cost to develop such a system > and then ongoing maintenance to add new features and support it. Your cost > and frustration is going to be much worse than just picking one of the big > WISP billing providers out there, I promise you that. > > If you are too stubborn to listen to the WISP's here that have already > gone through your process, good luck to you sir. You're not the "first" one > to have the idea of building their own system and the smart ones decided > against it and went with an established provider and don't regret it at all. > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Cameron Crum <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Well then, best of luck in your endeavors! >> >> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Brett A Mansfield < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> The research I did was very extensive. Wispmon in particular has their >>> pricing right on their website (which I love by the way. I wish everyone >>> would). >>> >>> You say that billing is the most important part of my business. I >>> respectfully disagree. It is actually one of the least important. The >>> product I'm selling is by far the most important, and the customer service >>> is next. Billing only happens after the first two are met. >>> >>> You mentioned several other things: >>> >>> *"I'm curious to what other systems you have in place that handle things >>> like mapping, monitoring, FCC reporting, sales tracking, prospect >>> qualification, inventory management, ip management, work orders, trouble >>> tickets, scheduling, provisioning, automated suspension and payments, >>> reporting, and more in addition to billing?"* >>> >>> With the small size of my company this is all very easily managed with >>> simple (and free) spreadsheets. So this argument is irrelevant to me. When >>> I get to a size where it is no longer easily managed, then and only then >>> will I start to pay for a service that can provide that (it will not be >>> until then that my business can afford to pay for it). >>> >>> You then offer advice to pay for this stuff from the beginning. Not >>> everyone is going to model their business in the way you think or society >>> thinks it should be. My business model is very, very different from the >>> norm. It's people that deviate from the "accepted standard", the ones that >>> think outside the box, that tend to do really well. My idea of success and >>> my idea of what and how a business should operate are not the same as >>> yours. >>> >>> Billing is something that should not be this difficult and expensive. >>> Why should I pay 5% of my revenue to someone that does nearly nothing??? If >>> I take what wispmon charges, add that to what it cost me to run a payment, >>> and then take out my operating costs, the likelihood of there being much >>> left is very low. The credit card companies already steal almost 3% before >>> I even pay the gateway company. Why are there so many different people >>> involved to make is to I can collect $45 from my customer? >>> >>> I really like what stripe, swipe, and PayPal have done by basically >>> taking one of the people out of that. The only problem is that they aren't >>> set up well for monthly recurring payments. That is what I intend to close >>> the gap on. >>> >>> Anyone who charges by the sub or has a monthly minimum so high that it >>> isn't worth it does not have a business model I agree with. >>> >>> I had seriously considered wispmon, but quickly ruled them out as soon >>> as I realized that you charge more for BYO Merchant account. I already have >>> a merchant account and have no interest in paying $200 to sign up for a new >>> one I have no experience with, or pay en extra $0.30 per sub per month >>> because I want to use someone I already use and trust. >>> >>> Another problem with Wispmon is that the main website looks like it was >>> built by using someone's free template that was simply modified old using >>> basic HTML code. If that is the impression I get from the main website, >>> what kind of product could they possibly be giving me? Will it look good? >>> Will it be based on old code too? Will it be easy to use? Too many >>> questions right off the bat. I'm not at all saying that this is how it is, >>> just saying that perception is reality. My first impression wasn't good, so >>> that sets the tone for the rest. >>> >>> You then went on to give me unsolicited advice as if to tell me how to >>> be running my business. My question was not why I should or shouldn't do >>> something, it was simply what options are out there. I've asked this >>> question several times and have done very extensive research on several >>> products. I didn't go that deep into wispmon because of my very first >>> impressions. And now after the email you sent out I will never consider it >>> again in the future. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Brett A Mansfield >>> >>> On Dec 9, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Cameron Crum <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I'm curious what your review consisted of? To my knowledge, you never >>> contacted us to ask any questions even after an offlist invitation. It >>> seems if you are going to the trouble of creating something new, you would >>> at least perform an exhaustive analysis meaning you are talking to someone >>> to ask questions. I understand you think that perhaps the most important >>> piece of your business should be free or close to it, but is that really >>> where you want to skimp? Having owned a wisp for 8 years starting in 2003 >>> and sold to JAB in 2010, and actually been where you think you are now, >>> when there really were few platforms available, I would have jumped at the >>> chance to pay under $1 (or maybe slightly more) per sub to have all the >>> capability that most of the current systems currently have. I'm curious to >>> what other systems you have in place that handle things like mapping, >>> monitoring, FCC reporting, sales tracking, prospect qualification, >>> inventory management, ip management, work orders, trouble tickets, >>> scheduling, provisioning, automated suspension and payments, reporting, and >>> more in addition to billing? If you are using separate systems for all of >>> these things, then it is probably costing you more than what you would pay >>> for a single platform which does all of these things. I know you say you >>> are small and if you are doing all of these things manually or with >>> multiple platforms, there will be a day when that won't scale and you will >>> either be killing yourself trying to keep up, or spending far more than you >>> think to make it all work. My advice would be to do a bit more real >>> research before you dig into rolling your own. Talk to people who have been >>> in your shoes and were adverse to spending money on a good system. I tell >>> people who are evaluating different systems, that even if they don't choose >>> us, choose one of the ones out there. If you are just getting started, it >>> is the best decision you will make. It is much easier to get in at the >>> beginning than to convert later. The hardest part of being a self-starting >>> entrepreneur is knowing when to let go of certain things and either pay >>> someone to do them, or pay to get them out of the way so you can get down >>> to growing your business. This I know for sure, as it is the hardest part >>> for me. >>> >>> Cameron >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Brett A Mansfield < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> To be clear, this will not be a standard in any way. It's just to fill >>>> a need where I see one. Something for the little guys like myself. This >>>> will not be a solution for those big customers since it will be limited to >>>> billing/CRM. >>>> >>>> I'm not doing this for profit. I'm doing this on the side and the >>>> numbers should make it break even. >>>> >>>> Eric, I really like that comic strip, it is exactly what I was thinking >>>> when I thought of doing this. Haha. >>>> >>>> There is NOTHING on the market like it though. Something that works, >>>> that is nearly free, that is for the very small guys where every single >>>> penny counts. >>>> >>>> If nobody in the world uses this system but me, then I'll still feel it >>>> was worth my time. My partners are volunteering their time and so am I, so >>>> our cost will be very low to develop this. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> Brett A Mansfield >>>> >>>> On Dec 9, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Josh Luthman <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good luck. It certainly has been tried before... >>>> >>>> >>>> Josh Luthman >>>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>>> 1100 Wayne St >>>> Suite 1337 >>>> Troy, OH 45373 >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Brett A Mansfield < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> So, after a lot of review of every billing solution I can find out >>>>> there, I've come to the conclusion that there is no good billing system. >>>>> Everything out there either requires you use their merchant, has a minimum >>>>> monthly cost, or isn't really designed for the ISP. Even the stuff that >>>>> has >>>>> come out most recently isn't a good fit. >>>>> >>>>> For those of you who are smaller and don't want to pay a monthly >>>>> minimum, or want to use your choice of merchant, or don't want to pay a >>>>> per >>>>> user charge, something new will be coming soon! >>>>> >>>>> I've spoken to a few proven software engineers in the financial side >>>>> of things and we are partnering up to develop a new ISP billing software. >>>>> It will be turnkey, very easy to use, and can be deployed either by you on >>>>> your servers, or can be hosted on ours. It will only handle >>>>> billing/invoicing and CRM/ticketing. Best of all, it's practically free! >>>>> >>>>> More details to come. I'll keep you posted when we have more info. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> Brett A Mansfield >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Mike Hammett <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Welcome to 2014? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- >>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>>>> http://www.ics-il.com >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange >>>>> http://www.midwest-ix.com >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From: *"Adam Moffett" <[email protected]> >>>>> *To: *[email protected] >>>>> *Sent: *Monday, December 7, 2015 1:32:33 PM >>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Need new billing solution asap!!! >>>>> >>>>> Ubiquiti has a CRM? >>>>> >>>>> On 12/7/2015 2:27 PM, Brett A Mansfield wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It's funny you mentioned waveapps. That is what I started out with. It >>>>> was a disaster. And the fact they don't allow multiple email addresses for >>>>> recurring invoices was a major deal breaker for me. >>>>> >>>>> I've since moved to UBNTs airCRM. It is an excellent setup on paper, >>>>> but is seriously lacking currently and is very erratic. I need something >>>>> solid, secure, and that I don't have to worry about all the time. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> Brett A Mansfield >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 12:08 PM, Joshaven Mailing Lists < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Plat has excellent support >>>>> >>>>> In my opinion, the problems with plat are: >>>>> 1) The user interface is a pain in the butt and generally discouraging. >>>>> 2) The software depends on a Windows platform and even worse direct >>>>> database connections from the client. >>>>> >>>>> 1) In most places when you want to alter something like customer data >>>>> you have to click on the field to edit from a table and then go to the >>>>> top >>>>> to make the change in something that is like an address bar… of course you >>>>> can get used to this but Plat is full of non-user friendly quirks like >>>>> this. It reminds me of what it feels like to go back and use Windows 95 >>>>> or >>>>> Windows 3.1 when I am used to modern operating systems. The system feels >>>>> almost like directly editing a database except that the software does >>>>> enforce logical edits so it is not nearly as dangerous as direct database >>>>> minupulation. >>>>> >>>>> 2) If you want to run a good highly available platform then you will >>>>> be spending a lot on software licensing with Microsoft. What is the going >>>>> rate for a MSSQL cluster now of days? Of course you can throw this on old >>>>> rusty crusty in a closet and run the free version of MSSQL but we are >>>>> carriers not hacks right? Also you are depending on ODBC database >>>>> connections between your clients and the server. Opening direct database >>>>> connections to my billing server gives me the creeps even if it is only >>>>> open to a network under my administration. I’m a fan of local host db >>>>> access only except for database peers. I would really like to see ISP >>>>> billing software be web based using standard https protocols and having no >>>>> client side dependencies like odbc configurations and client executables. >>>>> Try using Plat on a tablet… I don’t want my billing platform holding back >>>>> my ability to creatively design my installation process… >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I feel like I am ragging on Plat… maybe I am a bit but I want to >>>>> underscore their support. They are truly exceptional to work with and you >>>>> can rely on their platform. Just don’t expect to enjoy using it. If you >>>>> like function over form then you may be a perfect match for Plat… I just >>>>> wish they would do some magic to address the above two complaints. >>>>> >>>>> My recommendation to them is to become database & OS agnostic (at >>>>> least MySQL or MSSQL and run on Apache) and to make the client interface >>>>> be >>>>> 100% standards compliment browser based. I suspect if they don’t do this >>>>> they will find themselves with a EOL product in the next few years. >>>>> >>>>> Right now there are really good options emerging like WaveApps. Wave >>>>> offers free billing including credit card processing at fair rates. They >>>>> don’t fit perfectly with an ISP (yet) but they are promising an API which >>>>> means that a good solutions provider can crank out an integrations >>>>> solution >>>>> with Wave for front end billing. I am also super excited to see what >>>>> Sonar >>>>> has to offer. I hope their offer is solid and we have a glorious >>>>> solution… >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At any rate I am waiting with bated breath to see where this lands >>>>> over the next few months. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Joshaven Potter >>>>> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, UACA >>>>> Google Hangouts: [email protected] >>>>> Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370 >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:47 AM, Chuck Hogg <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I can setup Platypus for billing only in less than an hour, including >>>>> setting up plans/rates/services/importing customers. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Chuck >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Josh Luthman < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That get's to be a little in depth and probably a loaded >>>>>> question...but I know when we moved to Powercode the old team that wasn't >>>>>> very good had it done in one afternoon. This was from Quickbooks. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Josh Luthman >>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>>>>> 1100 Wayne St >>>>>> Suite 1337 >>>>>> Troy, OH 45373 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Ken Hohhof <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Are you including database conversion? Items, customers, current >>>>>>> balances, recurring billing, credit cards, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then there’s setting up the online customer payment portal. >>>>>>> Especially if customers already had online accounts. And you need to >>>>>>> hook >>>>>>> it into your merchant account, put your logo on it, test it, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Josh Luthman <[email protected]> >>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 05, 2015 2:24 PM >>>>>>> *To:* [email protected] >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Need new billing solution asap!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm simply saying 2 days is a long time to setup a billing system. >>>>>>> For someone that wants it running "immediately" 2 days is a LONG time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Josh Luthman >>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St >>>>>>> Suite 1337 >>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Philip Rankin <[email protected] >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey, I'm not in this for an argument. I am just offering to help a >>>>>>>> guy out if I can. I'll bow out of this conversation. >>>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2015 1:37 PM, "Josh Luthman" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Two days??? Powercode takes like an hour. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Josh Luthman >>>>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>>>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>>>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St >>>>>>>>> Suite 1337 >>>>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Philip Rankin < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Guys, I am still a major believer in Tucows Platypus. Brett, I >>>>>>>>>> could have you up and running with Plat in under 2 days as long as >>>>>>>>>> you can >>>>>>>>>> answer speed and pricing questions as I ask them. And all I would >>>>>>>>>> need is >>>>>>>>>> remote access to a Windows 7 computer. Let me know if you are >>>>>>>>>> interested. >>>>>>>>>> Most of the training can be done remotely in less than a day, too. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Simon Westlake < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think it is still pretty early on. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 12/4/2015 6:22 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So I guess it does that...lol. I >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ...
