Agreed. I have under 100 subs (though some of them pay handsomely) and there's no way I'd run my WISP without one of the established billing systems.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darin Steffl" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 4:04:43 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need new billing solution asap!!! Brett, After reading over this thread thoroughly, I don't think you understand how great your life would be if you paid the small amount that one of these billing/customer management systems cost. Wispmon, VISP, Azotel, powercode, Sonar, etc. The cost is nearly nothing and it saves you TIME. What is your time valued at? I value my time between $150-200 if someone wants me to do the work personally. With the time that Azotel saves us today with only using a handful of their features, it more than pays for itself in labor costs. We will probably look at Sonar once it is more finished and utilize even more of the features, saving even more hours every month. I'd say for every $1,000 a month we spend on a billing system, we'll save at least $2,000 in labor costs every month and it will help us collect money much faster and not give out free internet to no pays. You are not thinking straight if you think you're going to develop a FREE billing system that does everything you want accurately without bugs that need to be fixed over time. You have upfront cost to develop such a system and then ongoing maintenance to add new features and support it. Your cost and frustration is going to be much worse than just picking one of the big WISP billing providers out there, I promise you that. If you are too stubborn to listen to the WISP's here that have already gone through your process, good luck to you sir. You're not the "first" one to have the idea of building their own system and the smart ones decided against it and went with an established provider and don't regret it at all. On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Cameron Crum < [email protected] > wrote: Well then, best of luck in your endeavors! On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Brett A Mansfield < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> The research I did was very extensive. Wispmon in particular has their pricing right on their website (which I love by the way. I wish everyone would). You say that billing is the most important part of my business. I respectfully disagree. It is actually one of the least important. The product I'm selling is by far the most important, and the customer service is next. Billing only happens after the first two are met. You mentioned several other things: "I'm curious to what other systems you have in place that handle things like mapping, monitoring, FCC reporting, sales tracking, prospect qualification, inventory management, ip management, work orders, trouble tickets, scheduling, provisioning, automated suspension and payments, reporting, and more in addition to billing?" With the small size of my company this is all very easily managed with simple (and free) spreadsheets. So this argument is irrelevant to me. When I get to a size where it is no longer easily managed, then and only then will I start to pay for a service that can provide that (it will not be until then that my business can afford to pay for it). You then offer advice to pay for this stuff from the beginning. Not everyone is going to model their business in the way you think or society thinks it should be. My business model is very, very different from the norm. It's people that deviate from the "accepted standard", the ones that think outside the box, that tend to do really well. My idea of success and my idea of what and how a business should operate are not the same as yours. Billing is something that should not be this difficult and expensive. Why should I pay 5% of my revenue to someone that does nearly nothing??? If I take what wispmon charges, add that to what it cost me to run a payment, and then take out my operating costs, the likelihood of there being much left is very low. The credit card companies already steal almost 3% before I even pay the gateway company. Why are there so many different people involved to make is to I can collect $45 from my customer? I really like what stripe, swipe, and PayPal have done by basically taking one of the people out of that. The only problem is that they aren't set up well for monthly recurring payments. That is what I intend to close the gap on. Anyone who charges by the sub or has a monthly minimum so high that it isn't worth it does not have a business model I agree with. I had seriously considered wispmon, but quickly ruled them out as soon as I realized that you charge more for BYO Merchant account. I already have a merchant account and have no interest in paying $200 to sign up for a new one I have no experience with, or pay en extra $0.30 per sub per month because I want to use someone I already use and trust. Another problem with Wispmon is that the main website looks like it was built by using someone's free template that was simply modified old using basic HTML code. If that is the impression I get from the main website, what kind of product could they possibly be giving me? Will it look good? Will it be based on old code too? Will it be easy to use? Too many questions right off the bat. I'm not at all saying that this is how it is, just saying that perception is reality. My first impression wasn't good, so that sets the tone for the rest. You then went on to give me unsolicited advice as if to tell me how to be running my business. My question was not why I should or shouldn't do something, it was simply what options are out there. I've asked this question several times and have done very extensive research on several products. I didn't go that deep into wispmon because of my very first impressions. And now after the email you sent out I will never consider it again in the future. Thank you, Brett A Mansfield On Dec 9, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Cameron Crum < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> I'm curious what your review consisted of? To my knowledge, you never contacted us to ask any questions even after an offlist invitation. It seems if you are going to the trouble of creating something new, you would at least perform an exhaustive analysis meaning you are talking to someone to ask questions. I understand you think that perhaps the most important piece of your business should be free or close to it, but is that really where you want to skimp? Having owned a wisp for 8 years starting in 2003 and sold to JAB in 2010, and actually been where you think you are now, when there really were few platforms available, I would have jumped at the chance to pay under $1 (or maybe slightly more) per sub to have all the capability that most of the current systems currently have. I'm curious to what other systems you have in place that handle things like mapping, monitoring, FCC reporting, sales tracking, prospect qualification, inventory management, ip management, work orders, trouble tickets, scheduling, provisioning, automated suspension and payments, reporting, and more in addition to billing? If you are using separate systems for all of these things, then it is probably costing you more than what you would pay for a single platform which does all of these things. I know you say you are small and if you are doing all of these things manually or with multiple platforms, there will be a day when that won't scale and you will either be killing yourself trying to keep up, or spending far more than you think to make it all work. My advice would be to do a bit more real research before you dig into rolling your own. Talk to people who have been in your shoes and were adverse to spending money on a good system. I tell people who are evaluating different systems, that even if they don't choose us, choose one of the ones out there. If you are just getting started, it is the best decision you will make. It is much easier to get in at the beginning than to convert later. The hardest part of being a self-starting entrepreneur is knowing when to let go of certain things and either pay someone to do them, or pay to get them out of the way so you can get down to growing your business. This I know for sure, as it is the hardest part for me. Cameron On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Brett A Mansfield < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> To be clear, this will not be a standard in any way. It's just to fill a need where I see one. Something for the little guys like myself. This will not be a solution for those big customers since it will be limited to billing/CRM. I'm not doing this for profit. I'm doing this on the side and the numbers should make it break even. Eric, I really like that comic strip, it is exactly what I was thinking when I thought of doing this. Haha. There is NOTHING on the market like it though. Something that works, that is nearly free, that is for the very small guys where every single penny counts. If nobody in the world uses this system but me, then I'll still feel it was worth my time. My partners are volunteering their time and so am I, so our cost will be very low to develop this. Thank you, Brett A Mansfield On Dec 9, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Josh Luthman < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Good luck. It certainly has been tried before... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Brett A Mansfield < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> So, after a lot of review of every billing solution I can find out there, I've come to the conclusion that there is no good billing system. Everything out there either requires you use their merchant, has a minimum monthly cost, or isn't really designed for the ISP. Even the stuff that has come out most recently isn't a good fit. For those of you who are smaller and don't want to pay a monthly minimum, or want to use your choice of merchant, or don't want to pay a per user charge, something new will be coming soon! I've spoken to a few proven software engineers in the financial side of things and we are partnering up to develop a new ISP billing software. It will be turnkey, very easy to use, and can be deployed either by you on your servers, or can be hosted on ours. It will only handle billing/invoicing and CRM/ticketing. Best of all, it's practically free! More details to come. I'll keep you posted when we have more info. Thank you, Brett A Mansfield On Dec 7, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Mike Hammett < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Welcome to 2014? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Adam Moffett" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 1:32:33 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need new billing solution asap!!! Ubiquiti has a CRM? On 12/7/2015 2:27 PM, Brett A Mansfield wrote: <blockquote> It's funny you mentioned waveapps. That is what I started out with. It was a disaster. And the fact they don't allow multiple email addresses for recurring invoices was a major deal breaker for me. I've since moved to UBNTs airCRM. It is an excellent setup on paper, but is seriously lacking currently and is very erratic. I need something solid, secure, and that I don't have to worry about all the time. Thank you, Brett A Mansfield On Dec 7, 2015, at 12:08 PM, Joshaven Mailing Lists < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Plat has excellent support In my opinion, the problems with plat are: 1) The user interface is a pain in the butt and generally discouraging. 2) The software depends on a Windows platform and even worse direct database connections from the client. 1) In most places when you want to alter something like customer data you have to click on the field to edit from a table and then go to the top to make the change in something that is like an address bar… of course you can get used to this but Plat is full of non-user friendly quirks like this. It reminds me of what it feels like to go back and use Windows 95 or Windows 3.1 when I am used to modern operating systems. The system feels almost like directly editing a database except that the software does enforce logical edits so it is not nearly as dangerous as direct database minupulation. 2) If you want to run a good highly available platform then you will be spending a lot on software licensing with Microsoft. What is the going rate for a MSSQL cluster now of days? Of course you can throw this on old rusty crusty in a closet and run the free version of MSSQL but we are carriers not hacks right? Also you are depending on ODBC database connections between your clients and the server. Opening direct database connections to my billing server gives me the creeps even if it is only open to a network under my administration. I’m a fan of local host db access only except for database peers. I would really like to see ISP billing software be web based using standard https protocols and having no client side dependencies like odbc configurations and client executables. Try using Plat on a tablet… I don’t want my billing platform holding back my ability to creatively design my installation process… I feel like I am ragging on Plat… maybe I am a bit but I want to underscore their support. They are truly exceptional to work with and you can rely on their platform. Just don’t expect to enjoy using it. If you like function over form then you may be a perfect match for Plat… I just wish they would do some magic to address the above two complaints. My recommendation to them is to become database & OS agnostic (at least MySQL or MSSQL and run on Apache) and to make the client interface be 100% standards compliment browser based. I suspect if they don’t do this they will find themselves with a EOL product in the next few years. Right now there are really good options emerging like WaveApps. Wave offers free billing including credit card processing at fair rates. They don’t fit perfectly with an ISP (yet) but they are promising an API which means that a good solutions provider can crank out an integrations solution with Wave for front end billing. I am also super excited to see what Sonar has to offer. I hope their offer is solid and we have a glorious solution… At any rate I am waiting with bated breath to see where this lands over the next few months. Sincerely, Joshaven Potter MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, UACA Google Hangouts: [email protected] Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370 [email protected] <blockquote> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:47 AM, Chuck Hogg < [email protected] > wrote: I can setup Platypus for billing only in less than an hour, including setting up plans/rates/services/importing customers. Regards, Chuck On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Josh Luthman < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> That get's to be a little in depth and probably a loaded question...but I know when we moved to Powercode the old team that wasn't very good had it done in one afternoon. This was from Quickbooks. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Ken Hohhof < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Are you including database conversion? Items, customers, current balances, recurring billing, credit cards, etc. Then there’s setting up the online customer payment portal. Especially if customers already had online accounts. And you need to hook it into your merchant account, put your logo on it, test it, etc. From: Josh Luthman Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2015 2:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need new billing solution asap!!! I'm simply saying 2 days is a long time to setup a billing system. For someone that wants it running "immediately" 2 days is a LONG time. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Philip Rankin < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Hey, I'm not in this for an argument. I am just offering to help a guy out if I can. I'll bow out of this conversation. On Dec 5, 2015 1:37 PM, "Josh Luthman" < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Two days??? Powercode takes like an hour. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Philip Rankin < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Guys, I am still a major believer in Tucows Platypus. Brett, I could have you up and running with Plat in under 2 days as long as you can answer speed and pricing questions as I ask them. And all I would need is remote access to a Windows 7 computer. Let me know if you are interested. Most of the training can be done remotely in less than a day, too. On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Simon Westlake < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> I think it is still pretty early on. On 12/4/2015 6:22 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: <blockquote> So I guess it does that...lol. I wasn't really expecting it to be like that. It's not very baked ? or am I missing something? Regards, Chuck On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Chuck Hogg < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> I meant for the admin side? Regards, Chuck On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Faisal Imtiaz < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Just guessing.... Drop down on top right, select signup/create account ! :) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] <blockquote> From: "Chuck Hogg" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, December 4, 2015 4:25:07 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need new billing solution asap!!! <blockquote> Anyone know how to login to his demo? Regards, Chuck On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Simon Westlake < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> https://github.com/spencerlambert/wisp-central-control On 12/4/2015 10:08 AM, Jeremy wrote: <blockquote> Isn't Spencer Lambert's web front-end free? Last time I saw him at Animal Farm he was touting it and said he would help with setup and customization at a flat rate of $100/hr. He is located in Utah, also. If you want something cheap or free that may be an option. It would probably be worth contacting him. I recommend Powercode. On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Craig Schmaderer < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> I've been looking at https://www.whmcs.com/ I have a friend that uses it for his ventrillo voice business and it does auto billing and ticketing and is cheap. I think you can get a hosted solution if you don't want to install it. Craig schmaderer Skywave Wireless, Inc. On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 7:41 AM -0800, "Brett A Mansfield" < [email protected] > wrote: Here is what I've always said about quality, cheap and fast. You can only pick two. You will never have all three. For this I need fast and quality. Cheap is relative in this case. I don't have a lot of customers so the $200/mo min that visp requires is about $100-150 too much for me. I'm fine with a reasonable one time fee, but it must be reasonable. I used to use waveapps to just invoice and then customers could pay using the invoice. But if they didn't get the email or lost it, they couldn't pay their bill. I appreciate everyone's input on this. I think I'm going with platypus and pay someone to set it up. I like powercode, I just cannot justify the initial cost for my small size operation. Thank you, Brett A Mansfield On Dec 4, 2015, at 7:47 AM, Chris Fabien < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Good, cheap, and fast? You know what they say about that. We are reasonably happy with Powercode. Few gripes but it has never double or triple charged our customers. On Dec 4, 2015 1:35 AM, "Brett A Mansfield" < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> I'm looking for a good billing solution that is cheap and I can have up in running immediately. I've had far too many issues with my current billing system. I need something turnkey and cheap. My WISP is a fairly small operation. I am not willing to pay per sub, especially if there is a minimum like visp. I don't want to buy any new hardware. I looked at platypus, but it cannot be deployed easily or quickly. I looked at powercode, but I don't want to buy any new hardware. Is there anything out there that might fit my needs? Or should I just go back to manual invoicing with quickbooks? Thank you, Brett A Mansfield </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> -- Simon Westlake Skype: Simon_Sonar Email: [email protected] Phone: (702) 447-1247 --------------------------- Sonar Software Inc The next generation of ISP billing and OSS https://sonar.software </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> -- Simon Westlake Skype: Simon_Sonar Email: [email protected] Phone: (702) 447-1247 --------------------------- Sonar Software Inc The next generation of ISP billing and OSS https://sonar.software </blockquote> -- Philip J. Rankin Wireless Telecommunications Services PO Box 24 Pittsburg, KS 66762 </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> -- Darin Steffl Minnesota WiFi www.mnwifi.com 507-634-WiFi Like us on Facebook
