Also, it seems this explains the nuclear deal Kerry negotiated with Iran, 
basically trying to do what wasn’t done with Iraq.  (Idiot Trump doesn’t seem 
to realize Clinton isn’t still Sec. of State, but then he lives in a fact free 
zone.)  After years of sanctions, you have to get some payoff as a result of 
those sanctions, apparently the deal was the best our negotiating team could 
get.  Not trying to argue yes or no on that, just if you look back to the Iraq 
vote and Kerry’s speech, you can understand why he took the approach he did 
with Iran.


He has certainly worked his butt off on the diplomacy side even at the risk of 
failure.  Very different approach from Clinton, I think, who seemed to be more 
of a delegator.  Unfortunately his efforts on the Israel/Palestine issue were a 
total failure, and Putin and Lavrov totally played him for a fool on Syria.  
Well, and Obama too, remember he was going to do the big “reset” with Russia.  
And Hillary was the Russia hawk in the Obama administration.  Makes me totally 
shake my head at Trump wanting to “get along” with Russia.  Why is no one 
saying that sounds like weak Obama who tried to be Putin’s buddy and was made 
to look like a fool.  And no wonder Putin wants Trump to win, since Hillary is 
hawkish on Russia.  What a bizzaro world we live in, where the Republican 
candidate has a bromance with Putin, and it’s the Democratic candidate who 
wants to be tough on Russia?



From: Af [] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT does it really matter?


Then listen to the whole speech.


From: Af [] On Behalf Of CBB - Jay Fuller
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 12:08 AM
To: <> 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT does it really matter?



I remember very clearly the media covering how Saddam would not allow 
inspectors in and how he was very uncooperative.


In my opinion it is saddam's fault. Had he cooperated maybe we would not have 
gone to war....




Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone


----- Reply message -----
From: "Ken Hohhof" < <> >
To: < <> >
Subject: [AFMUG] OT does it really matter?
Date: Mon, Oct 17, 2016 12:03 AM


I remember that very clearly.  It was a war authorization vote.  The President 
told Congress he needed the authorization to strengthen his hand when he went 
to the UN and allies and sought new sanctions to force Iraq to submit to 
inspection and disarm, to show that the nation was behind him, and that it was 
not a vote to go to war except as a last resort.  He basically framed it as a 
vote of confidence in him, that he needed that vote to show the world he was 
serious and the nation spoke with one voice, it made it very difficult for 
Congress not to vote yes.  Of course he didn’t follow through with his promises 
and quickly went to war without exhausting all other avenues.


I clearly remember listening to Sen. John Kerry’s speech on the floor of the 
senate before the vote, laying this all out.  And I remember having a sick 
feeling that exactly what he said the President promised not to do and warned 
him not to do, was nonetheless going to happen.  Whatever you think of John 
Kerry, this is a riveting speech.  I found a video of it online.  It’s 50 
minutes long, if you can’t spend that much time, skip to around 33:00.




From: Af [] On Behalf Of CBB - Jay Fuller
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 11:07 PM
To: <> 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT does it really matter?



I remind you....congress had to vote on that. 


Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone


----- Reply message -----
From: "Jaime Solorza" < 
<> >
To: "Animal Farm" < <> >
Subject: [AFMUG] OT does it really matter?
Date: Sun, Oct 16, 2016 10:50 PM


Well Bush decision to invade Iraq did affect my family.. My son who proudly 
served in Iraq came back injured physically and mentally.  He is still under 
medical care ..   We should have gone after Taliban in Afghanistan and wiped 
them out along with poppie fields.   Hussein was a dictator I know but our 
reason to invade was based on weapons of mass destruction which didn't exist.   
We messed up the status quo, left and gave ISIS an opening... If you study 
history of region it has shown no outside nation has ever been able to conquer 
area for very long..  These folks have been at war since forever and we got 
caught up in it.  When you travel on plane you are affected... Large public 
events are different now because threat of terrorism exists.   So we are all 
affected some way.    The times, they are a changin


On Oct 16, 2016 9:21 PM, "Bruce Robertson" < 
<> > wrote:

Exactly right.  Who is president has some effect, but not game changing.  Most 
people in the country are middle of the road, and the progress of the country 
reflects that.  The pendulum swings back and forth, but always reverts to the 

On 10/16/16 8:17 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Congress makes and changes law.  Supreme Court makes a few important decisions. 
 Regulators are who really run the country.


Does it really matter who the president is?

What did Obama do?  Encouraged the ACA.  Dropped the ball in Syria.  But  how 
did he affect me, my degree of wealth, my amount of spare time?


Ditto Bush.  They affect foreign policy.  They have the ability to really mess 
up other people’s lives in other countries, but do they really have much effect 
on me?  


Granted, altering  the make up of the Supreme Court changes things like can I 
choose to marry a dude or do I have to sell wedding cakes to gays.  But that 
really does not touch me.  My granddaughter having to cope with dudes in the 
bathroom at school hits a bit closer to home, but I trust congress will 
eventually settle on something a bit more common sense.  


I guess I am trying to convince myself that a president really doesn’t do much 
here at home.  Congress does.  The court does.  Bureaucracies do.  


Now, if the president could get a whole truckload of cheese delivered to the 
Whitehouse and give it out to anyone that drops in for a visit, then we are 
talking about a real impact...




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