Ben: Obviously, this information could be used in a logical reasoning
process...
I suspect that you don't actually understand what "logic" means when the
term is used by others; you have a habit of criticizing others' ideas based
on
the false assumption that they are defining terms according to your own
taste rather than according to the definitions they explicitly state ;p
Ben,
Let me challenge you on this. This is absolute nonsense.
You have claimed that logic can visualise whether the layout of the clinic
allowed Sue and Jane to see or miss each other.
Logic can't visualise anything. Logic is letters. They have no connection to
the real world. I cannot get the physical scene of a clinic from logic, any
more than I can the scene of Bondi Beach yesterday, or what the state of my
bedroom was this morning. (You think people have logical databases listing
every item in the room that is a clinic or a bedroom or a beach? Meshuggeh).
How is logic going to come up with: "oh that clinic foyer is v. large and
can be extremely crowded, people can easily miss each other"... or "maybe
Sue came two minutes early and was already in with the doctor, when Jane
arrived"... ??
And on top of that this is a one-off situation. That clinic may be v,
different from other clinics - they come in all shapes and sizes. There is
no possible logic of, say, doctors' clinics. Logic is general and can't deal
with one-off situations. All real world situations are individual as well as
typical.
Nor can words do the reasoning - as they may appear to above. To know
whether they could have missed each other you really do have to visualise
the clinic and the possible crowds and the individual figures - and "figure
out" whether they could be physically apart enough not to see each other.
Reasoning here depends on the brain's imaginative capacity to move figures
around the world's scenes/stages and check whether they fit together or not.
Checking whether logical symbols match each other isn't going to help you,
and is a fundamentally secondary operation.
Logic has no powers of imaginative reconstruction or figurative reasoning
whatsoever - and that is primarily what is needed to solve real world
problems like these.
You are getting fooled by the brain's capacity to *label* its
imaginative/figurative manoeuvres **after** the fact with logical or verbal
symbols - much as you thought that the fact that a picture can be encoded,
meant that the objects and shapes in that picture had been encoded, when
they hadn't at all.
This is a crucial matter - logic is never used in real world reasoning, and
the idea that it can be, is holding both you and others back, restricting
you to toy problems.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ben Goertzel" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 7:29 PM
To: "AGI" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [agi] Real World Reasoning
Mike,
Typically, of course, AI-ers are trying to adapt./ rescue logic to deal
with
real world reasoning. Thus a Ben problem asks:
"were Sue and Jane both at the clinic last Tues. at 4.00 pm?"
an obviously logically adaptable (and rather artificial) problem.
A real world and more realistic version of that would ask:
"Sue and Jane were both at the clinic that time - but did they see each
other/bump into each other?"
The methods described in that book could be used equally well for
either of these questions.
Humans can solve that, as they solve other forms of real world reasoning,
but not by logic - by going through their imaginative experience of the
real
world and living in it - in this case of clinics and being in them. Such
real "spatiotemporal", " contextual" reasoning is not logical.
Sometimes a human would solve a question like that logically, sometimes
using episodic knowledge ... it would depend on the context and the
information
they had available
You might
have here for instance to think about the layout of the clinic, and which
doctors Sue and Jane were visiting.
Obviously, this information could be used in a logical reasoning
process...
I suspect that you don't actually understand what "logic" means when the
term is used by others; you have a habit of criticizing others' ideas
based on
the false assumption that they are defining terms according to your own
taste rather than according to the definitions they explicitly state ;p
ben
-------------------------------------------
AGI
Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5
Modify Your Subscription:
https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
-------------------------------------------
AGI
Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393
Modify Your Subscription:
https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
