I see no contrast. These vague statements/strategies can be expressed quite nicely using soft/fuzzy/uncertain truth values applied to links in a semantic net. As for implementing the behavior they describe, that will come later, but as with any goal-oriented behavior, there will be (1) a goal description -- whether vague or precise, doesn't really matter -- and (2) a (most likely heuristic, a.k.a. imprecise) goal metric. The magic you perceive here is already accounted for.
Defining imprecision or uncertainty lets you represent it effectively. If you don't define it, you can't represent it. If you can't represent it, you can't compute it. To build things you have to make things *out of* something. You are advocating we just conjure up uncertainty out of thin air. On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: > I would be surprised here, Aaron, if you are not a victim of the abuse > of key terms throughout AI. > > Of course, there is a great deal of “fuzzy” logic – and I assume your use > of “soft” is not a million miles from that. > > When you look into these logics, you find that actually they are being > used with precision and precise values > > Contrast them with:. > > 1.WE NEED TO TAKE SOME POSITIVE ACTION HERE TO DEAL WITH THEIR THREATS. WE > CAN’T LET THEM THINK WE’RE GOING TO FOOL AROUND. > > 2. FIRST WE NEED TO DEFINE THE PROBLEM – WE CAN’T START WORKING ON > SOLUTIONS LIKE AGIERS BEFORE WE’VE EVEN DEFINED THE PROBLEM. THEN WE NEED > TO DIG UP WHATEVER EVIDENCE WE CAN FIND, AND GRADUALLY GENERATE SOME IDEAS. > OR WE COULD START WITH IDEAS, AND THEN CHECK OUT THE EVIDENCE. > > 3. LET’S GO TO THE MAIN SHOPPING STREET, AND NOSE AROUND TO SEE WHAT WE > CAN FIND. > > These are examples of the kind of truly fluid (or soft, or vague) thinking > that characterises human/real AGI thinking – and that are way beyond the > compass of any logic or algo. They are also interdependently, as I think > we’ve discussed, truly general – levels higher than logic and maths, .with > their vague generalities as distinct from the latter’s specific > generalities. > > ** > *From:* [email protected] > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:07 PM > *To:* AGI <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [agi] The Fundamental Misunderstanding in AGI [was > Superficiality] > > You apparently missed a big chunk of the recent conversation between Jim & > me. > > I am using "soft" truth values to represent so called facts because I > assumed from the start that single, unambiguous meanings are merly > artifacts of our perception. My system is built from the ground up with > tools necessary for dealing with imprecision, uncertainty, and ambiguity. > Jim was trying to convince me of the need for additional measures, and > (within the limits of our mutual understanding) we agreed on that point. > > This is in direct contradition to your statements below about our use of > rigid logic. I'm sure there are other groups out there doing the same for > shapes and images. Where did you pick up this idea that we are stuck on > simple geometric shapes and logic that only permits the simple yes/no > dichotomy? And why do you think algorithms are restricted to them, too? > > > > -- Sent from my Palm Pre > > ------------------------------ > On Oct 30, 2012 12:23 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> wrote: > > Schema is a fluid outline – as distinct from a geometrically defined > outline/pattern which is rigid.(You can geometrically define a moving wavy > line – but it’s “rigidly/fixedly wavy”). The outline of a real waterdrop > is a fluid outline. The outline of your hand grasping or your body moving > is a fluid outline. They’re actually moving/changing – so you know that any > shape they may have at a given moment is fluid and about to change. > > Another way to think of it is to look at any cartoon: > > https://www.google.com/search?num=10&hl=en&safe=off&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1362&bih=692&q=obama+cartoon&oq=obama+cartoon&gs_l=img.3..0l10.1269.3112.0.3741.13.9.0.2.2.0.131.589.8j1.9.0...0.0...1ac.1.YShcABKFARI > > We understand when we look at a cartoon outline of say Obama that that > is an outline to be interpreted "*fluidly* and not literally. We understand > that that outline is to be understood as saying “the lines of the real > object are “SOMETHING LIKE” these (but not exactly and not in any way that > can be precisely defined). Those outlines, you could say, stand in relation > to the real thing, rather like the outline of a waterdrop or hand a few > seconds ago, stands in relation to their outlines now. > > The brain *demonstrably* works with fluid outlines. Every icon you see: > > http://www.clipartlab.com/clipart_preview/clipart/icons3-2.gif > > is evidently not a literal rendering of the outlines of the real objects, > but to be interpreted fluidly. > > So if the conscious brain evidently works with fluid outlines, then the > unconscious brain must be able to. > > But this requires a whole different mentality from the geometric/logical > mentality – there, things have to be precise. You can’t understand a point > as being loosely round about a given location. You can’t understand a given > logical symbol as meaning “loosely something like this object”. If you do > all your equations and deductions will be buggered. > > And if you just llsten to people here, they continually (naturally given > their tools) crave precision, single, unambiguous meanings, correct answers. > > The fluid mentality is: “hang loose, dude; don’t be so uptight; go with > the flow” - it’s fluid and adaptable, and continuously changing with > unlimited potential to change further and produce multiple-to-infinite > versions (within certain constraints).. > > Algorithms are utterly rigid and haven’t produced and never will a produce > a single new element – or new fluid conformation. > > > > *From:* Mike Archbold <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 30, 2012 4:13 PM > *To:* AGI <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [agi] The Fundamental Misunderstanding in AGI [was > Superficiality] > > > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 6:16 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: > >> >> >> Mike A: >> >> All of Mike T's arguments seem to me to stem from a standpoint of >> extreme empiricism. He doesn't seem to acknowledge anything other than >> precisely what is under consideration. Even though a chair top can look >> different in all cases, in all cases there IS a constant, and that is that >> the essence of a chair persists. Philosophers have long fought with these >> issues, and as most know it was Kant who came closest (arguably) to >> reconciling the empiricists and the rationalizers. >> >> No I’m not a pure empiricist. (The philosophical/psychological background >> is loosely important – recent comments seem unaware that this is one of >> the most controversial areas). >> >> The difference is indeed about rationality – about what *kind* of >> schema/classificatory devices the mind (human or any real world mind) must >> impose on its images of objects. Rationality – and everyone here, except >> for me, is in effect a rationalist – presupposes a CONSTANT schema – just >> as you have said, and just as Plato implied 2,500 years ago. That’s because >> you are still intellectually living in the age of text, where everything >> you see is constant and unchanging. >> > > > You wouldn't even be able to communicate at all if there were no > constants. I'm not sure what you by schema in this context but I think you > mean some kind of form or set-of-properties relevant to some object or > thing. > > Nobody says you have to have 100% constants. Indeed, that is ridiculous. > But, you are arguing using a false dichotomy, it seems to me: either > CONSTANTS or FLUID, or roughtly rationalist vs. empiricist. The reality is > however that both are needed to process reality, the constant and the > changing/unique, and it doesn't matter if we are talking about language, > thought, or physical objects. > > >> Move into the new millennium of movies, which are now a sine qua non, and >> you realise that everything is FLUID/MOVING – and different individual >> versions of things are different from (and in effect fluid versions of) >> others. >> >> There is no constant, essential waterdrop or human being, or chair or >> apple – especially in a world in which all things may be and usually are >> transformed by external means in all kinds of way – like being stepped on, >> smashed, burned or fragmented - if you just look, that lack of a constant >> is self-evident. But you don’t look – you a priori seek to impose the >> constant frameworks of language, maths and logic on a fluid world – >> determined to defend them to the death – despite the fact that they >> obviously are a complete, never failing to fail, bust for >> conceptualisation/recognition and anything AGI. >> >> For a fluid, transformational world and objects, you need fluid, >> transformational schemas – but there is nothing in the “languages” you know >> about them, and you’re not open to new ideas. >> > > > I get the continuous feeling that you think that just because we express > something as an algorithm or in conversational language nothing further can > emerge from it.... is that right??? > > >> >> Fluid schemas are doubly essential because – the other thing that all >> here forget – an AGI of any kind must get to know and classify objects >> *piecemeal/gradually*, developmentally. The first chair or dog you see may >> not be at all a typical or common one. All the current approaches to AGI >> assume a *full knowledge/fully developed mind* - with well structured >> concept graphs and a fully developed grammar - which has in effect already >> learned more or less all it really needs to know - quite, quite absurd. >> Every approach in the field is only appropriate to a fully knowledgeable >> narrow AI routine/subsystem, not to a real world AGI, complete system >> gradually, fluidly getting to know the world. >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae> | >> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/23050605-bcb45fb4> | > Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/23050605-bcb45fb4> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
