On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 6:16 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote:
> > > Mike A: > > All of Mike T's arguments seem to me to stem from a standpoint of > extreme empiricism. He doesn't seem to acknowledge anything other than > precisely what is under consideration. Even though a chair top can look > different in all cases, in all cases there IS a constant, and that is that > the essence of a chair persists. Philosophers have long fought with these > issues, and as most know it was Kant who came closest (arguably) to > reconciling the empiricists and the rationalizers. > > No I’m not a pure empiricist. (The philosophical/psychological background > is loosely important – recent comments seem unaware that this is one of > the most controversial areas). > > The difference is indeed about rationality – about what *kind* of > schema/classificatory devices the mind (human or any real world mind) must > impose on its images of objects. Rationality – and everyone here, except > for me, is in effect a rationalist – presupposes a CONSTANT schema – just > as you have said, and just as Plato implied 2,500 years ago. That’s because > you are still intellectually living in the age of text, where everything > you see is constant and unchanging. > You wouldn't even be able to communicate at all if there were no constants. I'm not sure what you by schema in this context but I think you mean some kind of form or set-of-properties relevant to some object or thing. Nobody says you have to have 100% constants. Indeed, that is ridiculous. But, you are arguing using a false dichotomy, it seems to me: either CONSTANTS or FLUID, or roughtly rationalist vs. empiricist. The reality is however that both are needed to process reality, the constant and the changing/unique, and it doesn't matter if we are talking about language, thought, or physical objects. > Move into the new millennium of movies, which are now a sine qua non, and > you realise that everything is FLUID/MOVING – and different individual > versions of things are different from (and in effect fluid versions of) > others. > > There is no constant, essential waterdrop or human being, or chair or > apple – especially in a world in which all things may be and usually are > transformed by external means in all kinds of way – like being stepped on, > smashed, burned or fragmented - if you just look, that lack of a constant > is self-evident. But you don’t look – you a priori seek to impose the > constant frameworks of language, maths and logic on a fluid world – > determined to defend them to the death – despite the fact that they > obviously are a complete, never failing to fail, bust for > conceptualisation/recognition and anything AGI. > > For a fluid, transformational world and objects, you need fluid, > transformational schemas – but there is nothing in the “languages” you know > about them, and you’re not open to new ideas. > I get the continuous feeling that you think that just because we express something as an algorithm or in conversational language nothing further can emerge from it.... is that right??? > > Fluid schemas are doubly essential because – the other thing that all here > forget – an AGI of any kind must get to know and classify objects > *piecemeal/gradually*, developmentally. The first chair or dog you see may > not be at all a typical or common one. All the current approaches to AGI > assume a *full knowledge/fully developed mind* - with well structured > concept graphs and a fully developed grammar - which has in effect already > learned more or less all it really needs to know - quite, quite absurd. > Every approach in the field is only appropriate to a fully knowledgeable > narrow AI routine/subsystem, not to a real world AGI, complete system > gradually, fluidly getting to know the world. > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
