What is considered to be rational thinking and rational behavior is a
created criteria, in otherwords there is no absolute definition of rational
thinking and rational behavior, rational for an individual is not
necessarily rational for the genome or for the group, and visa versa. If
you accept this then you can make a plausible argument both in favor and
against the idea that the unconscious is rational, same for the conscious.
On Sunday, December 2, 2012, Mike Tintner wrote:
> Ben,
>
> If you were more psychiatrically/psychoanalytically experienced, you would
> suspect that you were responding here because something important has been
> touched in your mind.
>
> As usual, you make a silly response rather than deal with a new, important
> and still difficult idea.
>
> Few nowadays would dispute that the unconscious is mainly rational
> processing – challenging the Freudian notion of it as something irrational.
> We have had a string of books to that effect recently. I don’t see how you
> could seriously object to that.
>
> We are also just starting to see the idea that the conscious mind is
> creative, take hold in recent books.
>
> The contrary notion that it is algorithmic, pace most cognitive science,
> is based on literally **zero** study of human conscious deliberations. The
> slightest scientific study of such deliberations will show that the
> conscious mind – as actually you all, in practice, agree (see Russell’s
> recent thread) – has extraordinary difficulties following anything like an
> algorithmic train of thought – has extraordinary difficulties
> concentrating, period – that is perhaps the central glaring fact about
> consciousness. You actually don’t get much sillier than arguing that the
> conscious mind, which as William James noted, actually jumps all over the
> place, is an algorithmic process.
>
> All this jumping about is precisely because life for a real AGI is
> primarily a creative, and only secondarily a rational business. There are
> no rules for any creative or real world activity, such as painting or
> programming (or conversation or shopping), as there are for rational tasks
> like mathematical calculation. You start composing your life – like your
> posts and your chats – from a blank page, not an algorithmic formula.
> Creativity is a whole different culture to that of rationality.
>
> If you weren’t so extraordinarily resistant to any new, out of the
> rational box idea, you would realise that the joke will be very much on
> you.,
> *From:* Ben Goertzel <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', '[email protected]');>
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 02, 2012 2:51 AM
> *To:* AGI <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', '[email protected]');>
> *Subject:* Re: [agi] Kurzweil's new book
>
>
> Whoa... that's a kinda surreal perspective!!!
>
> The unconscious is rational and algorithmic?? That would be a big
> surprise to the psychiatry community ;O ;D ...
>
> Mike T, thanks for being baffling and silly in a different way than your
> usual; that brightened up a foggy, rainy Hong Kong morning for me ;)
>
> ben
>
> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Mike Tintner
> <[email protected]<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> '[email protected]');>
> > wrote:
>
>> Yes. Put that more simply, the conscious mind supervises creative
>> thinking - that which “we don’t know how to do” pace Piaget, and wh. is
>> non-algorithmic, - and the unconscious mind is in charge of routine,
>> (basically rational), algorithmic thinking, which we do already know how to
>> do. And that’s the essential architecture of a mildly evolved AGI or lower
>> organism – and a neat, fairly obvious division of labour.
>>
>> *From:* Micah Blumberg <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', '[email protected]');>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 01, 2012 11:40 PM
>> *To:* AGI <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', '[email protected]');>
>> *Subject:* Re: [agi] Kurzweil's new book
>>
>> Hawkins Memory-Prediction may be a key component of future AGI, but it
>> isn't conscious, and its not meant to be, he is building it for a narrow
>> the application of predicting live streaming big data, to make highly
>> accurate predictions about when to heat a building on a campus, and when to
>> cool it, to save money. That isn't AGI, it has a much more narrow focus. If
>> you shut down the old brain, and just have a neo cortex, your neocortex
>> alone will not be conscious. That's why Hawkins work isn't AGI
>>
>> On Saturday, December 1, 2012, Tim Tyler wrote:
>>
>>> On 30/11/2012 19:52, Piaget Modeler wrote:
>>>
>>> Hawkins has a very narrow focus, he isn't building AGI, he's building
>>> software that makes predictions, its totally different from making an
>>> artificial mind.
>>>
>>>
>>> Not so much. If we knew what the consequences of our actions would be,
>>> it would
>>> help a *lot* with choosing between them. Think of chess, for instance.
>>> If you knew
>>> the likely consequences of your possible moves, you would be done.
>>>
>>> --
>>> __________
>>> |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
>>> '[email protected]'); Remove lock to reply.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ~~
>> Warmly,
>>
>>
>> Micah
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>
>
>
> --
> Ben Goertzel, PhD
> http://goertzel.org
>
> "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche
>
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--
~~
Warmly,
Micah
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