It is a place occupied by one frequently.
________________________________ From: Logan Streondj <[email protected]> To: AGI <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [agi] Minksy criticism On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Schwartz, Daniel <[email protected]> wrote: I really don’t know much about this subject , so if this question has been answered and you know where to find the answer, I’d appreciate it if someone could point it out to me. I’m really curious if there is anyone out there as interested in the subject as me who I can converse with! This seems to be the place! > >I just started researching AGI and I was wondering about questions regarding >Ben’s criticisms on Minsky’s book “The society of mind” and “the emotion >machine”. Those theories makes a lot of sense to me, but ben thinks >“societies” is the wrong way to think about the mind, etc. Why is Minsky’s >theories different than bens? I can’t find the source from where he said this, >I think it might have been in an interview, but I’m not sure. But the >criticism was something along the lines of “Minsky’s mind society does not >consider the “synergy” of the mind working together.” > >Here is my rebuttal: > >In his second book “Emotion Machine” Minsky describes the mind as a series of >“resources” instead of societies, but it’s largely the same concept. Anyway, >when a person “thinks”, certain “resources” get turned on or off depending on >the higher level goals of the question. When someone is in excruciating Pain, >most resources turn off, leaving the individual to force to think about how to >get rid of the pain. That doesn't make sense to me, as wouldn't they need those resources in order to think about how to get rid of the pain? The only time I can think of where a person's resources would be turned off, is if they are panicking or very angry, then their forebrain may be turned off, and they just flail around doing stupid stuff, cause they can't think straight. In Love, sometimes it seems as if a whole new “program” is running and blemishes can turn into embellishments—meaning, the “resources” for being turned off by physical, or personality defects is switched off. Hmmm, actually if I recall correctly, what happens is that the person doesn't know this new person they've met yet, and projects the model of what they think that person is i.e. who they are looking for, over who they really are. So all the resources are still available, it's simply that not enough information has been gathered, to fully confirm or deny the person conforms to the model, or if the model can work with the new person. Though perhaps he refers to people being drunk, where parts of their brain are turned off, and so they have a much slower or rather impaired ability to infer what people look like, and so things that would normally break model/goal parameters are overlooked. In the example of Pain, the higher level resource called “Pain” switches off all the other resources. That's just really false, unless that pain triggers fight-or-flight which is a panic mode, by itself is just a sensation. For instance I used to have chronic pain, yet had ability to think about stuff, and move around, admitedly my brain may have been suboptimally functioning as I was malnutritioned, and once I got better nutrition not only did the pain go away, but my mind cleared up also. >How is it wrong to think of the mind as societies or resources as Minsky >thinks? Why does the idea of hierarchy societies controlling lesser societies >not work? You can think about stuff anyway you please. I don't really see how society hierarchies pertain to the brain. I tend to see it as a series of loops, if there is very little time/energy (due to panic or poison), only the small inner loops, (lower/mid-brains) function, if there is plenty of time, then all the loops can function. Would you really consider the lower-brain the one responsible for breathing and walking, the pinnacle of the hierarchy of society? Usually it's the other way around isn't it? For instance the hierarchy of society has judges and law somewhere at the top, which is in the forebrain, the most recent and sometimes least accessed part of the brain (i.e. sociopaths, profiteers, politicians). If we modeled our societies after the brain, the "lower classes" would make up the smallest portion of the people, and be the most important (always getting enough food and resources). while the "higher classes" would be the most of the populace, receiving the smallest incomes, and starving on occasion. Yet as you may know, it's often the other way around. I’m also aware that the question of “Where do the algorithms for the higher level societies come from?” But that is answered by the code described in our DNA and which has developed through mysterious events in evolution over thousands of years. > obviously our brains are made from the DNA's blueprint just like the rest of our bodies. I have not gotten too in depth in the book yet, but I don’ see how this theory lacks as a supplementary framework for OpenCog. I am also familiar with the different sets of learning that OpenCog is, including MOSES and the others. I also have not investigated how these systems work, so maybe they actually do function as switches of on and off resources. OpenCog is supposed to emulate a three year olds mind, right? How is that working out? Well I remember he had it operating a dog in second-life, and an AI in a blocks world. >I vaguely understand the pattern theory that ben is all about, and I was >wondering also if someone could point out where I can read more of that? I'm more interested in results than theories. Until proven theories are just a bunch of hot air. >**This is so exciting and I am really grateful for everyone who is dedicating >their time working on this relatively unknown idea. I am talking to all my >friends about and trying to spread the idea of singularity. If I had more >knowledge in programming, I’d be on board to help out! I hope that this >happens in my lifetime, that it is a benevolent creature, and that it is >“sensitive”, caring, like humans. So not sociopathic like mega-corporations and even some governments, i.e. societies of people. >As ben loves to say, “why would we care about a few ants or bacteria that die >in building a skyscraper?” It is because we realize they are creatures too, >and we wouldn’t want them to completely annihilate us. I do not think that the >only reason people study them is for reasons to only elevate our understanding >of the universe. Why can’t the reason be that we want to help other creatures >get better? Just because someone is smarter than another, why wouldn’t it be >comprehensible for it to wish to help the lesser? I hope that AGI systems will >“feel” that desire. The programmers need to be very careful building this >thing, even if that means gambling their dreams of eternity, because we have >to consider the future of our children if it turns out to be malevolent, >luckily most people are aware of this alternative. price-barter-calculation should hopefully make not only robots more benevolent but also corporations. While we have benevolent individuals and even some well meaning societies, unfortunately being benevolent is not profitable, only being malevolent is, as profit is in fact stealing, similar to how socialism steals from the people, to give to the government. If our ability on making benevolent machines, hinged on benevolent societies, it may be a very long time yet. Even the UN with their sex slaves, the IMF with them bankrupting nations, can be seen as malevolent forces. My hope is that we can make benevolent AGI's to help teach societies how to be more benevolent/ beneficial. >Thanks everybody, > >Danny >AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
