Did I say no algorithm can be creative? Nope, I did not. What do you think a human brain is running if not biologically implemented algorithms? Do you think there is some mysterious something not covered by the Church-Turing Thesis?
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:29 PM, tintner michael <[email protected]>wrote: > Samantha: Michael, you think no algorithm can be creative? What do you > think results in your own creativity, if any? If it is not a set of > biologically encoded algorithms then what exactly is it? > > If you want to know, listen to: > > Samantha: Uh, a human baby has to do a lot of bumping up against the > world, a lot of grasping, trying to move, trying to focus eyes, learning to > make sounds intelligible. > > It's nondeterministically programmed improvisation - nondeterministically > programmed improvised goal-seeking. That's what every infant does when it > flails aroundin the ways you mention, that's what you're doing right now as > you compose your posts. That's what all forms of creativity entail and very > visibly demonstrably entail. You think creatives searching for inspiration, > sometimes for years, are following algos - step-by-step preplanned courses > of action ? What's the algo for a creative block? What's the algo that > drives AGI projectbuilders to say "5 years if we really really try" when he > actually hasn't the slightest ideas? What do you think H SImon was talking > about when he talked about nonprogrammed, unstructured thinking as distinct > from the programmed kind? > > I have written a lot about this here, Samantha - you sound like you're > coming in at the tail-end. > > There are no creative algoirthms/recipes - algos are just amplified human > routines, low level stuff if extremely useful. And whenever an AGI-er > starts to offer a concrete example of "creative algorithms" as PM has just > done, they only end up offering excuses. Always. > > > > On 3 December 2013 01:19, Samantha Atkins <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Michael, you think no algorithm can be creative? What do you think >> results in your own creativity, if any? If it is not a set of biologically >> encoded algorithms then what exactly is it? If it is a set of algorithms, >> however encoded, then why can't it be implemented on a different substrate? >> Perhaps your notion of "algorithm" is a bit too limited. >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:28 AM, tintner michael < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Oh please, PM. This is still dishonest. Ben tried this "read x.." ploy >>> several times - never was anything there. >>> >>> Put up your example of algorithmic creativity for the enlightenment of >>> all here. You can't. Neither can anyone else. >>> >>> Don';t lecture about "reasoning ability" until you're capable of >>> reasoning from empirical examples. >>> >>> >>> On 2 December 2013 19:13, Piaget Modeler <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> As a philosopher, I would think that you would like to read. >>>> I hope you're not being lazy. >>>> >>>> Here's a starting point.... >>>> >>>> http://publications.csail.mit.edu/lcs/pubs/pdf/MIT-LCS-TR-563.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> As I said, once you have context, I will be happy to discuss this with >>>> you. >>>> Gain some context and let's discuss. This is the internet, it's not >>>> that hard. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> ~PM >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 18:23:29 +0000 >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [agi] I guess I don't have AGI all figured out. >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> >>>> PM;We can't spoon feed each other endlessly. ..... >>>> >>>> That is the most cowardly and dishonest statement. It is typical. I am >>>> sick of this kind of dishonesty. Put up or shut up. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2 December 2013 18:17, Piaget Modeler <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>> We can't spoon feed each other endlessly. Do a little research. Read >>>> the book. >>>> Let's discuss when you've obtained Drescher's thesis (probably online) >>>> or read his book. >>>> >>>> Always happy to discuss... >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> ~PM. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 18:06:54 +0000 >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [agi] I guess I don't have AGI all figured out. >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> >>>> PM The Schema System synthesized new identifiers to represent novel >>>> situations >>>> >>>> Synthesized what new from what? A proper specific example please.Not a >>>> sleight-of-hand handwave. >>>> >>>> I guarantee you're talking nonsense. Prove me wrong. You should be >>>> delighted to discuss - this is the most important thing in AGI - far more >>>> important than any of the narrow AI techniques you often discuss in detail. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2 December 2013 17:59, Piaget Modeler <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>> Gary Drescher's thesis qua book "Made Up Minds". >>>> >>>> The Schema System synthesized new identifiers to represent novel >>>> situations. >>>> >>>> True Creativity. True Construction. >>>> >>>> Mike Tintner, this is the meme that you need to surpress: "*a creative >>>> algorithm is a physical impossibility*". >>>> >>>> It is interfering with your reasoning ability, and creating a blind >>>> spot for you. >>>> >>>> ~PM >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 15:41:44 +0000 >>>> Subject: Re: [agi] I guess I don't have AGI all figured out. >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> >>>> "Theoretically, contrary to Tintner's argument, it would be feasible to >>>> use CBR to discover and represent truly novel situations. However, this >>>> theoretical argument is not easy" >>>> >>>> One example of this creativity. From anywhere or anyone.. Actual or >>>> theoretical. >>>> >>>> I repeat : a creative algorithm is a physical impossibility like >>>> perpetual motion, the Immaculate Conception, transubstantiation of wine >>>> into the blood of Christ and other such religious fictions of creativity. >>>> And a bleeding obvious impossibility if you could just once turn your >>>> attention from the "architecture" of algorithms to the finished buildings >>>> they produce.. Then you'd see algorithms can't produce new building >>>> blocks.Only the same old Lego buildings. >>>> >>>> If no one can give even a theoretical example - not the slightest proof >>>> of concept - you are engaging in a Giant Wank. >>>> >>>> >>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5> | >>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/19999924-4a978ccc> | >>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5> | >>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/19999924-4a978ccc> | >>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5> | >>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>> >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/2997756-fc0b9b09> | >>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5> | >> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/2997756-fc0b9b09> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
