Evolution algorithm:
A: Introduce random change
Test
IF improvement helps survival and reproduction keep else delete
Go To A
Nature cooked up this little algorithmic number at some point, and it
has worked fine. A nice little algorithm which has been creating
forever.
On 12/4/13, Samantha Atkins <[email protected]> wrote:
> Did I say no algorithm can be creative? Nope, I did not. What do you
> think a human brain is running if not biologically implemented algorithms?
> Do you think there is some mysterious something not covered by the
> Church-Turing Thesis?
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:29 PM, tintner michael
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> Samantha: Michael, you think no algorithm can be creative? What do you
>> think results in your own creativity, if any? If it is not a set of
>> biologically encoded algorithms then what exactly is it?
>>
>> If you want to know, listen to:
>>
>> Samantha: Uh, a human baby has to do a lot of bumping up against the
>> world, a lot of grasping, trying to move, trying to focus eyes, learning
>> to
>> make sounds intelligible.
>>
>> It's nondeterministically programmed improvisation -
>> nondeterministically
>> programmed improvised goal-seeking. That's what every infant does when it
>> flails aroundin the ways you mention, that's what you're doing right now
>> as
>> you compose your posts. That's what all forms of creativity entail and
>> very
>> visibly demonstrably entail. You think creatives searching for
>> inspiration,
>> sometimes for years, are following algos - step-by-step preplanned
>> courses
>> of action ? What's the algo for a creative block? What's the algo that
>> drives AGI projectbuilders to say "5 years if we really really try" when
>> he
>> actually hasn't the slightest ideas? What do you think H SImon was
>> talking
>> about when he talked about nonprogrammed, unstructured thinking as
>> distinct
>> from the programmed kind?
>>
>> I have written a lot about this here, Samantha - you sound like you're
>> coming in at the tail-end.
>>
>> There are no creative algoirthms/recipes - algos are just amplified human
>> routines, low level stuff if extremely useful. And whenever an AGI-er
>> starts to offer a concrete example of "creative algorithms" as PM has
>> just
>> done, they only end up offering excuses. Always.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3 December 2013 01:19, Samantha Atkins <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Michael, you think no algorithm can be creative? What do you think
>>> results in your own creativity, if any? If it is not a set of
>>> biologically
>>> encoded algorithms then what exactly is it? If it is a set of
>>> algorithms,
>>> however encoded, then why can't it be implemented on a different
>>> substrate?
>>> Perhaps your notion of "algorithm" is a bit too limited.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:28 AM, tintner michael <
>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh please, PM. This is still dishonest. Ben tried this "read x.." ploy
>>>> several times - never was anything there.
>>>>
>>>> Put up your example of algorithmic creativity for the enlightenment of
>>>> all here. You can't. Neither can anyone else.
>>>>
>>>> Don';t lecture about "reasoning ability" until you're capable of
>>>> reasoning from empirical examples.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2 December 2013 19:13, Piaget Modeler
>>>> <[email protected]>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As a philosopher, I would think that you would like to read.
>>>>> I hope you're not being lazy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's a starting point....
>>>>>
>>>>> http://publications.csail.mit.edu/lcs/pubs/pdf/MIT-LCS-TR-563.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said, once you have context, I will be happy to discuss this with
>>>>> you.
>>>>> Gain some context and let's discuss. This is the internet, it's not
>>>>> that hard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> ~PM
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 18:23:29 +0000
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [agi] I guess I don't have AGI all figured out.
>>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>> PM;We can't spoon feed each other endlessly. .....
>>>>>
>>>>> That is the most cowardly and dishonest statement. It is typical. I am
>>>>> sick of this kind of dishonesty. Put up or shut up.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2 December 2013 18:17, Piaget Modeler
>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We can't spoon feed each other endlessly. Do a little research. Read
>>>>> the book.
>>>>> Let's discuss when you've obtained Drescher's thesis (probably online)
>>>>> or read his book.
>>>>>
>>>>> Always happy to discuss...
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> ~PM.
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 18:06:54 +0000
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [agi] I guess I don't have AGI all figured out.
>>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>> PM The Schema System synthesized new identifiers to represent novel
>>>>> situations
>>>>>
>>>>> Synthesized what new from what? A proper specific example please.Not a
>>>>> sleight-of-hand handwave.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guarantee you're talking nonsense. Prove me wrong. You should be
>>>>> delighted to discuss - this is the most important thing in AGI - far
>>>>> more
>>>>> important than any of the narrow AI techniques you often discuss in
>>>>> detail.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2 December 2013 17:59, Piaget Modeler
>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary Drescher's thesis qua book "Made Up Minds".
>>>>>
>>>>> The Schema System synthesized new identifiers to represent novel
>>>>> situations.
>>>>>
>>>>> True Creativity. True Construction.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Tintner, this is the meme that you need to surpress: "*a creative
>>>>> algorithm is a physical impossibility*".
>>>>>
>>>>> It is interfering with your reasoning ability, and creating a blind
>>>>> spot for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~PM
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 15:41:44 +0000
>>>>> Subject: Re: [agi] I guess I don't have AGI all figured out.
>>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>> "Theoretically, contrary to Tintner's argument, it would be feasible
>>>>> to
>>>>> use CBR to discover and represent truly novel situations. However,
>>>>> this
>>>>> theoretical argument is not easy"
>>>>>
>>>>> One example of this creativity. From anywhere or anyone.. Actual or
>>>>> theoretical.
>>>>>
>>>>> I repeat : a creative algorithm is a physical impossibility like
>>>>> perpetual motion, the Immaculate Conception, transubstantiation of
>>>>> wine
>>>>> into the blood of Christ and other such religious fictions of
>>>>> creativity.
>>>>> And a bleeding obvious impossibility if you could just once turn your
>>>>> attention from the "architecture" of algorithms to the finished
>>>>> buildings
>>>>> they produce.. Then you'd see algorithms can't produce new building
>>>>> blocks.Only the same old Lego buildings.
>>>>>
>>>>> If no one can give even a theoretical example - not the slightest
>>>>> proof
>>>>> of concept - you are engaging in a Giant Wank.
>>>>>
>>>>>
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