You != your brain.
Suffering == required to induce spiritual growth (==entropy reduction).
How do you create a productive environment for an immortal physical
being after you remove suffering? How are you planning on inducing
spiritual growth in such a setup? If there is no "punishment" for
unproductive mindsets and states of consciousness (ego driven, fearful,
high entropy) then what is the point? The entire thing will just
collapse ... way faster than our contemporary society.
On 08.01.2015 09:41, Steve Richfield via AGI wrote:
Proof:?
If you were to replace just one brain cell with a precise functional
duplicate, albeit made with a different technology, it would do all of
the same things and you would still be you. Right?
OK, so let's do this again with another brain cell. You would still be
you. Right?
OK, so lets do this again, and again, and again. You would still be
you. Right?
OK, so let's do this, cell at a time with your entire brain. You would
still be you. Right?
OK, so this is too slow, let's replace the cells 10 at a time. You
would still be you. Right?
OK, that is still too slow, so let's replace the cells a million at a
time. You would still be you. Right?
OK, so let's speed this up and replace them a billion at a time. You
would still be you. Right?
OK, so let's go all the way and just replace them 100 billion (the
entire brain) at a time. You would still be you. Right?
OK, so why bother replacing the individual cells with discrete cells,
when something like clusters of micros programmed to simulate discrete
cells would be more efficient. You would still be you. Right?
OK, but why keep your meat body, when interfacing directly between the
replacement cells and an electronic body would be MUCH more efficient
and repairable. You would still be you. Right?
OK, now that we have gotten THIS far, let's start considering some
alternatives, e.g. replacing some of the micros in the clusters with
micros pre-programmed to do some of the jobs like vision better. You
would still be you. Right? Hmmm, I'm not so sure, and besides, why
bother with this step when simulation would be good enough - unless
you are after MUCH better than human performance. The live forever
folks don't care so much about performance, and so see this as a
needless step.
OK, but there was no mention of VR here, but that wouldn't make any
difference. You would still be you. Right? I see this sort of VR as
being a MUCH bigger challenge than AGI, because it would be necessary
to simulate much of our world, which is complex beyond our
comprehension. And besides, wouldn't people prefer to live in the real
world? Personally, I see VR as a worthless misdirection.
Anyway, here is the "proof" for immortality, into which you can insert
various proposals to test whether you would still be you.
I look forward to feedback.
Steve
On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Piaget Modeler via AGI
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Ummm.... sorry, but if you go to sleep on an operating table, then
they slice up your brain... you won't wake up. A copy of you might
continue in a machine or online, but YOU certainly won't. That is
my current understanding. Kindly advise if I'm incorrect here.
Please explain #3 below.
Now imagine what it'll be like debugging an AGI's memes.
I think I'd rather debug Cyc, by hand, using notepad++, scrolling
through the KB one line at a time. Aaaargh !!!
~PM
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 21:00:55 -0500
> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> CC: [email protected]
> Subject: [agi] How to create an uploader.
>
> Uploading, like all other religions, is a memmetic parasite. As
such, it
> can disected like all other memes.
>
> The standard anatomy of a memetic parasite.
>
> 1. A genetic code. With christianity it is the bible, with
uploading it
> is a highly standardized narrative about how you go to sleep on an
> operating table, your brain is sliced and scanned, and then you
> magically wake up inVR.
>
> 2. A set of behaviors that re-enforce the belief in the meme and
promote
> its spread. With christianity we see churches and men in robes, with
> uploading we see a massive emphasis on brain preservation and the
> continual proselatizing we see on all transhumanist boards.
>
> 3. A defense mechanism. With religion we see, when the religion
can get
> away with it, a broad array of sanctions against heretics,
including the
> belief of punishment for non-belief. With uploading, and this is
my most
> recent discovery, there is a truly ingenious self-defense
mechanism that
> I'm only just now beginning to come to understand.
>
>
> Now the ideal victim of this memetic parasite is someone who
thinks of
> himself as being highly logical, has a background in computing,
and has
> adopted a specific ontological framework. Even though Godel
showed that
> there is no such thing as a perfect ontology, uploaders behave
as if the
> world obeys their ontological framework instead of the truth
which is
> that their ontological framework merely has a sufficient
correlation to
> real-world phenomena to be useful for a finite set of problems. The
> world, of course, does not give a flying fuck about what you
think is
> scientifically or logically correct.
>
>
> The victim of the parasite must not have enough meta-scientific
sense to
> realize that there are subjects which science simply cannot make a
> meaningful statement about. Specifically I am referring to
subjective
> experience. You may say that an upload will behave LIKE the
origional,
> that is a reasonable scientific statement. You, however, cannot
say that
> the upload IS the original because that is a statement of
philosophical
> metaphysics and cannot be addressed with a scientific mindset.
>
>
> The course of the infection can be traced like any other
disease. The
> stage 1 of infection can be called "hooked". The prognosis for
treatment
> in this phase is still pretty good. The fledgling uploader has found
> some aspect of uploading that seems positive and may consider
himself to
> be an uploader but is still open to introspection and new ideas.
>
> Thankfully, because uploading has not had as much time to evolve as
> other religions, the memeplex has not yet been pre-digested down
to a
> litany that can infect even low-iq hosts. A stage 2 uploader is
one that
> has come to believe that backup copies are a potential form of
> immortality. -- this is absurd but people actually believe this.
This is
> a critical phase for an uploader because it is probably the last
stage
> at which intervention is still possible. This phase will
probably last
> for less than a week in most patients.
>
> A third phase uploader has come to the realization that his highest
> priority should be to pollute clean virgin floppy disks with
copies of
> his mind -- for the sake of backups....
>
> Uploading becomes terminal at the instant the uploader first
thinks to
> himself "Well that form of transhumanism sounds interesting-ish,
I'll
> give it more thought after I have safely backed up my mind...."
Patients
> who reach this stage are irredeemable. =( It is actually quite
shocking
> to consider how perfectly the uploading memetic parasite
protects its
> victims from new ideas! It provides the perfect excuse not to think
> about any aspect of transhumanism that doesn't involve uploading!
>
> Unfortunately, there is an omega phase of uploading. It happens
when the
> backup ethic gets crossed with the "heroic ethic" which
basically states
> that a person should attempt to, heroically, save the life of
those in
> peril. Because anyone who does not have a backup copy is, by
definition,
> in peril, it then becomes imperative to save them (to floppy).
This is
> where uploaders become a threat to everything that walks, swims, or
> crawls. =(((
>
> While the uploaders could certainly use what I have written here
to make
> their meme-plex more dangerous, I hope this can be used by
non-uploaders
> and early-stage uploaders to help control the growth of this
parasite
> and make it possible to discuss a broad and diverse spectrum of
> transhumanist ideas without pre-imposing an inevitable teleology.
>
> Friends don't let friends become uploaders!
>
> --
> IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel.
>
> Powers are not rights.
>
>
>
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