PM, I have thought long about the tipping point issue, and have come to the conclusion that our collective Christianized mindset is seeing this all wrong.
Back in 2001 I corrected my body temperature, which had been wrong for 51 years. This changed EVERYTHING. Lots of old ailments disappeared, though there were some minor new ailments to replace them. I gained ~20 IQ points. Even my reaction time dropped from ~1/3 to ~1/4 of a second. Before doing this I had some trepidation, because I KNEW that the Old Steve would almost certainly be gone forever. Even uploading/downloading couldn't save him. The New Steve would probably see much of what the Old Steve had "accomplished" in his life as being rather sophomoric, etc. This would be a little like taking someone else's place in a game, after they had already screwed up their situation. The experience was like waking up for the first time in my life. However, I felt unchanged, and then realized that we ALWAYS feel "normal", unchanged, regardless of how we change. New ideas started presenting themselves, including some powerful new principles of logic like Reverse Reductio ad Absurdum, which would go on to support more advanced thinking than I had previously imagined. Then I thought... Every night we become unconscious. Every morning we become conscious again. Have we changed? OF COURSE we have. Decades of this accumulated change are what we call "growing up", "learning", "maturing", etc. Are we the same person we were when we were 10 years old? The obvious answer is NO, nor should we be. If our brains were artificially enhanced, would we be the same person? From your present muddled mindset you might be inclined to say YES, but once enhanced you would look back, see little but marginal insanity, and say NO. My point here is that my change-a-cell logic actually preserves MORE of you than does ordinary aging, or even my temperature correction, and preserves a LOT more of you than does neurological enhancement. You continue to cling to your Christian spirit, which clearly does NOT exist in any desirable form. We must ALL move on to better things via life's (and death-uploading's) metamorphoses. For most folks that eventually includes a headstone. For me, I have already been through a couple of metamorphoses (growing up and temperature correction) and hope for more an bigger changes in my future. Will I still be me? OF COURSE NOT. But really, why should I care?!!! Thoughts? Steve =============== On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:12 AM, Piaget Modeler via AGI <[email protected]> wrote: > That's what Darth Sidius proposed to Annakin Skywalker. Eternal Life via > Cybernetic enhancement. > The General Grievous treatment. (Grievous was only a brain stem, heart, > and eyeballs). > The rest of him had been mechanized. > > In your example, there is a tipping point where you are no longer you. > Don't know exactly > where that is though. Is General Grievous still himself? Or just a > shadow. They didn't replace > his brain though, just everything else. > > ~PM > > ------------------------------ > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 00:41:14 -0800 > Subject: Re: [agi] How to create an uploader. > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > > Proof:? > > If you were to replace just one brain cell with a precise functional > duplicate, albeit made with a different technology, it would do all of the > same things and you would still be you. Right? > > OK, so let's do this again with another brain cell. You would still be > you. Right? > > OK, so lets do this again, and again, and again. You would still be you. > Right? > > OK, so let's do this, cell at a time with your entire brain. You would > still be you. Right? > > OK, so this is too slow, let's replace the cells 10 at a time. You would > still be you. Right? > > OK, that is still too slow, so let's replace the cells a million at a > time. You would still be you. Right? > > OK, so let's speed this up and replace them a billion at a time. You would > still be you. Right? > > OK, so let's go all the way and just replace them 100 billion (the entire > brain) at a time. You would still be you. Right? > > OK, so why bother replacing the individual cells with discrete cells, when > something like clusters of micros programmed to simulate discrete cells > would be more efficient. You would still be you. Right? > > OK, but why keep your meat body, when interfacing directly between the > replacement cells and an electronic body would be MUCH more efficient and > repairable. You would still be you. Right? > > OK, now that we have gotten THIS far, let's start considering some > alternatives, e.g. replacing some of the micros in the clusters with micros > pre-programmed to do some of the jobs like vision better. You would still > be you. Right? Hmmm, I'm not so sure, and besides, why bother with this > step when simulation would be good enough - unless you are after MUCH > better than human performance. The live forever folks don't care so much > about performance, and so see this as a needless step. > > OK, but there was no mention of VR here, but that wouldn't make any > difference. You would still be you. Right? I see this sort of VR as being a > MUCH bigger challenge than AGI, because it would be necessary to simulate > much of our world, which is complex beyond our comprehension. And besides, > wouldn't people prefer to live in the real world? Personally, I see VR as a > worthless misdirection. > > Anyway, here is the "proof" for immortality, into which you can insert > various proposals to test whether you would still be you. > > I look forward to feedback. > > Steve > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Piaget Modeler via AGI <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Ummm.... sorry, but if you go to sleep on an operating table, then > they slice up your brain... you won't wake up. A copy of you might > continue in a machine or online, but YOU certainly won't. That is > my current understanding. Kindly advise if I'm incorrect here. > > Please explain #3 below. > > Now imagine what it'll be like debugging an AGI's memes. > I think I'd rather debug Cyc, by hand, using notepad++, scrolling > through the KB one line at a time. Aaaargh !!! > > > ~PM > > > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 21:00:55 -0500 > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > CC: [email protected] > > Subject: [agi] How to create an uploader. > > > > > Uploading, like all other religions, is a memmetic parasite. As such, it > > can disected like all other memes. > > > > The standard anatomy of a memetic parasite. > > > > 1. A genetic code. With christianity it is the bible, with uploading it > > is a highly standardized narrative about how you go to sleep on an > > operating table, your brain is sliced and scanned, and then you > > magically wake up inVR. > > > > 2. A set of behaviors that re-enforce the belief in the meme and promote > > its spread. With christianity we see churches and men in robes, with > > uploading we see a massive emphasis on brain preservation and the > > continual proselatizing we see on all transhumanist boards. > > > > 3. A defense mechanism. With religion we see, when the religion can get > > away with it, a broad array of sanctions against heretics, including the > > belief of punishment for non-belief. With uploading, and this is my most > > recent discovery, there is a truly ingenious self-defense mechanism that > > I'm only just now beginning to come to understand. > > > > > > Now the ideal victim of this memetic parasite is someone who thinks of > > himself as being highly logical, has a background in computing, and has > > adopted a specific ontological framework. Even though Godel showed that > > there is no such thing as a perfect ontology, uploaders behave as if the > > world obeys their ontological framework instead of the truth which is > > that their ontological framework merely has a sufficient correlation to > > real-world phenomena to be useful for a finite set of problems. The > > world, of course, does not give a flying fuck about what you think is > > scientifically or logically correct. > > > > > > The victim of the parasite must not have enough meta-scientific sense to > > realize that there are subjects which science simply cannot make a > > meaningful statement about. Specifically I am referring to subjective > > experience. You may say that an upload will behave LIKE the origional, > > that is a reasonable scientific statement. You, however, cannot say that > > the upload IS the original because that is a statement of philosophical > > metaphysics and cannot be addressed with a scientific mindset. > > > > > > The course of the infection can be traced like any other disease. The > > stage 1 of infection can be called "hooked". The prognosis for treatment > > in this phase is still pretty good. The fledgling uploader has found > > some aspect of uploading that seems positive and may consider himself to > > be an uploader but is still open to introspection and new ideas. > > > > Thankfully, because uploading has not had as much time to evolve as > > other religions, the memeplex has not yet been pre-digested down to a > > litany that can infect even low-iq hosts. A stage 2 uploader is one that > > has come to believe that backup copies are a potential form of > > immortality. -- this is absurd but people actually believe this. This is > > a critical phase for an uploader because it is probably the last stage > > at which intervention is still possible. This phase will probably last > > for less than a week in most patients. > > > > A third phase uploader has come to the realization that his highest > > priority should be to pollute clean virgin floppy disks with copies of > > his mind -- for the sake of backups.... > > > > Uploading becomes terminal at the instant the uploader first thinks to > > himself "Well that form of transhumanism sounds interesting-ish, I'll > > give it more thought after I have safely backed up my mind...." Patients > > who reach this stage are irredeemable. =( It is actually quite shocking > > to consider how perfectly the uploading memetic parasite protects its > > victims from new ideas! It provides the perfect excuse not to think > > about any aspect of transhumanism that doesn't involve uploading! > > > > Unfortunately, there is an omega phase of uploading. It happens when the > > backup ethic gets crossed with the "heroic ethic" which basically states > > that a person should attempt to, heroically, save the life of those in > > peril. Because anyone who does not have a backup copy is, by definition, > > in peril, it then becomes imperative to save them (to floppy). This is > > where uploaders become a threat to everything that walks, swims, or > > crawls. =((( > > > > While the uploaders could certainly use what I have written here to make > > their meme-plex more dangerous, I hope this can be used by non-uploaders > > and early-stage uploaders to help control the growth of this parasite > > and make it possible to discuss a broad and diverse spectrum of > > transhumanist ideas without pre-imposing an inevitable teleology. > > > > Friends don't let friends become uploaders! > > > > -- > > IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel. > > > > Powers are not rights. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > AGI > > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > > RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/19999924-4a978ccc > > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> | > Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > > > -- > Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a six > hour workday. That will easily create enough new jobs to bring back full > employment. > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/19999924-4a978ccc> | > Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> | > Modify > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> > Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a six hour workday. That will easily create enough new jobs to bring back full employment. ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
