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On 2017-03-15 02:19 AM, Ben Goertzel wrote: > Obviously, these interesting new neuroscience results should be > exciting and disturbing to anyone attempting to build AGI based on > the "conventional" perspectives of neuroscience ... but for those > of us building AGI based on non-neuroscience-oriented > considerations, they're not terribly relevant... > aye aye to that! > It has been my view since forever that we don't know enough about > the brain to meaningfully base our AGI designs on current theories > of brain function... these new findings about dendrites validate > this view for me, but certainly don't change the situation (i.e. > this is not the last major upheaval neuroscience is gonna > experience en route to a full understanding of the brain) yep, really it just pushes back the $1000 for a human brain equivalent to the 2030's, and thus the "singularity" to the 2050's ($1000 for humanity equivalent) . whats an extra decade? > > -- Ben > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Colin Hales <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> AGI winter? >> >> No way! Summer is afoot. :-) >> >> We just have to step back and question 60 years of presupposition >> and be open to the reality of the answer. There's enough evidence >> now to justify being deeply suspect of the current approaches. >> >> Not only is ephaptic coupling (EM field-based neural coupling) >> the second kind of brain signalling, a blizzard of DAP (dendritic >> action potentials) joins SAP (synaptic action potentials), which >> is equally capable of expressing massive quasi-static EM field >> wave mechanics and its own ephaptic coupling in neuropil. >> >> We've been working with only a tiny part of what the brain is >> doing for 60+ years. All the projections by Kurzweil? Out by 3 >> orders of magnitude at least. >> >> Dorian and I might have different approaches to how AGI will come >> about (his organic, mine inorganic), but we both share a common >> and simple principle: the replication of the exact brain physics >> responsible for brain signalling. Not computing our way around a >> model of brain signalling. The latter is a chip with the physics >> of a model of the brain, not a chip with the brain physics in it. >> Totally different things that a different in a way that almost >> entirely neglected by science. >> >> In my (inorganic) case, it has only been since the noughties that >> we've had the tech to put the brain's signalling physics on 3D >> chips and let it interact with itself the way it interacts in the >> brain. We have no excuses for not doing this any more. We know >> what that physics is. >> >> Doing real AGI is a 'CERN-supercollider' scale outcome, but >> there's no winter implied in this. All it needs is $ and the >> will. Dorian is up for it. I am too. I'm testing the design of >> such a thing (simulation) as we speak. If, as I suspect is the >> case, replicating the brain's signalling physics is the real >> answer, then the actual winter (failing for 60+ years to fully >> replicate all brain functions responsible for intelligence), may >> be seen in hindsight to have been in place all along and only now >> to have ended. That era produced all manner of wonderful useful >> things. But not AGI. >> >> All the old EM field guard have died off. E Roy John, Pribram, >> Freeman. Sue Pockett has retired. JJ McFaeedn has left the >> building. I'm 61. Dorian and I seem to be the only >> representatives left alive that have the will and the knowledge >> to do what is needed: the resurrection of cybernetics as it was >> left for dead in the 1950s when computers were invented. That is >> the real AGI summer. AGI done without computers. It's been >> sitting there waiting all that time. >> >> Maybe the $ will come. I am self funding but I can only go to >> phase II. Phase III (a few years away) needs a bucket o'cash and >> a chip foundry. I have the ideas for the necessary robotics >> nursery and how to test it all. Maybe out there there's someone >> else thinking along the same lines. I don't know. But there's a >> way forward and it's different. A green field left fallow by the >> old cyberneticists. >> >> So no wintery thoughts, please! :-) >> >> cheers colin >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:31 AM, justcamel <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Another AGI winter? >>> >>> >>> On 14.03.2017 03:11, Colin Hales wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Over the last 15 years, every 3 years or so we get yet another >>> paper that takes us all towards the centralisation of brain >>> signalling on the EM fields. Not _away_ from such an idea. >>> _Towards_ that idea. >>> >>> This is merely the latest in that long vector towards EM fields >>> as central to brain operation. >>> >>> ============================================ Moore, J.J., >>> Ravassard, P.M., Ho, D., Acharya, L., Kees, A.L., Vuong, C., >>> and Mehta, M.R. (2017). Dynamics of cortical dendritic membrane >>> potential and spikes in freely behaving rats. Science. earlier >>> Arxiv version >>> http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/12/28/096941 >>> >>> See http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2017/03/08/s >>> cience.aaj1497 and commentary "Why our brains may be 100 times >>> more powerful than believed" here: >>> http://newatlas.com/brains-more-powerful/48357/ >>> ==================================================== >>> >>> Guess what?: 'Dendritic Action Potentials' (DAP) must now >>> become a thing. All your simulation packages? Just got old. All >>> your neuromorphic chips? Has-beens. >>> >>> SOMATIC AP is 60 years old. DENDRITIC AP now comes home. >>> >>> Neocortical sub- and suprathreshold dendritic membrane >>> potential (DMP) breaking out into localised firing within the >>> dendrite structure. Dendrite firing has been observed for a >>> long time, but this is the first time anyone has seriously >>> accessed its origins and correlated it with behaviour. >>> Collectively the DMP are very strong (as represented by voltage >>> measured in tissue: Higher than somatic action potentials!) >>> This is because neural tissue is 90% dendritic and there are >>> collosal numbers of post-synaptic densities (synapses). >>> >>> The implication ... you guessed it .... the brain is not a >>> computer (analog or digital) but a system of interacting fields >>> who's long-distance outward signs ... the tip of the iceberg >>> ... are soma-related action potentials. I reckon it's at least >>> 3 orders of magnitude more complex, not just two....because >>> it's totally spatialised and interacting at distance at near >>> the speed of light. >>> >>> It is physically impossible for any signals to operate >>> chemically (ion-channel ion transport leading to extracellular >>> ion motion = currents) on the fast timescales found to actually >>> operate in the dendrites. Ions can barely move a nanometer on >>> those timescales. There are NO currents at all! No current can >>> possibly be the origin of collective signalling of this kind. >>> >>> The fields? No problem. Action at a distance. Speed of light. >>> Remotely-activated modulation of remote transmembrane fields >>> (in this case the post-synaptic density of ion channels, >>> advancing and retarding signal events). Easy. Plain old >>> classical physics of the Lorentz force. Field systems exactly >>> of the kind I did in my PHD thesis. >>> >>> And exactly the same thing in my chip design ... what I am >>> experimentally working on already ... my proposed system does >>> this naturally. This is because I have no neurons in my design. >>> I merely have loci of signalling that does the same thing >>> dendrites/soma/axons do. >>> >>> This seems like a big deal to me. Is that 'ol penny gonna drop >>> this time? How much evidence can a system ignore before it goes >>> bang and shifts. (Reminds me of a certain political context ... >>> let's not go there) :-) >>> >>> Back to testing. >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> colin >>> >>> *AGI* | Archives >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/23508161-fa52c03c> >>> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >>> >>> *AGI* | Archives >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11721311-20a65d4a> >>> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >>> >> *AGI* | Archives >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/19237892-5029d625> >> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > > - -- Logan Streondj, A dream of Gaia's future. twitter: https://twitter.com/streondj You can use encrypted email with me, how to: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ key fingerprint: BD7E 6E2A E625 6D47 F7ED 30EC 86D8 FC7C FAD7 2729 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIwBAEBCAAaBQJYyoDlExxzdHJlb25kakBnbWFpbC5jb20ACgkQhtj8fPrXJymc oBAAk7FrP74469R49sfi0NR3Nu9XK1u8YYDJM0N+taOjZAf6ROTvsy9vPLueNyBt pwl6SlCd5ve6tsHZiQAtcnV0PaeRknuMNXU1Zd4XpqWdbSnJsqD/ir8umq0noG59 F2z//n9RDruJitYyawyV5+wbC2sIiKmTfNa7KGeiGvkTQMO7ZiIgWMxhYvH49WY1 eZCMKWM3IzAza3Z/yKfZsyBqDBar8ajF/+CUCCCPsD8niwN3FKQxh/Ddq6o4rOBT vBWu1Yf0X21/Yl7P2EneGqnNndPnsVC6ROWSPDbymquJzOPDnBTdvam/eCjsnxYK 5SskeDoZKrHVTQ7L+siPh4O0TM7pbd7Q8XkxAha3KVgQNwlDlRtw8Nzqyw3PZNTF loy8oIlUrAJzuwjspmkYXrwJXrOysE+R+z+QAk0nJbzaimgYFPJJix5k17/3vdGN USMNtocdZCsVdHv8gNEF66IWWmBc4dvDOIIOYDioK3gJLhoJkMelPYQu/gKaIFFp 8RWMn3flmpguBjALnUzCUeOU/RFnHF6bour9Dc9bFSycU7VfyDEFPJZv4SaF8ikB 9hw4eKWW4pNBeYjTcyOT2YxwOuSgjPAPFFgCPdimgyyGJQYea7hMfezAVgPyztKp LMhLktEyDq9FIBpoMkLL9O1vDz1Fg361wYolXQBjyoNTN/4= =RYMJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
