Its mainly that I believe there is a full range of intelligences available,
from a simple thermostat, to a complex one that measures and controls humudity
and knows if a person is in a run, and has specific settings for differnt
people, to a an expert system, to a human to an AI and super AGI, all having
some level of intelligence.
The ones we are concerned with are the 1/2 human level and anything above.
Learning I would say is a key role in having a high-level of intelligence,
probably the main building block, learning and reasoning, both tied tightly
together.
James Ratcliff
Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I would say "rote memorization"
and knowledge / data, IS understanding.
OK, we have a definitional difference then. My justification for my view
is that I believe that you only *really* understand something when you have
predictive power on cases that you haven't directly seen yet (sort of like
saying that, in order to be useful or have any value, a hypothesis must have
predictive power).
>> I look outside and I see a tree, I understand that it is a tree, I know
>> its a tree, I know about leaves and grass and how it grows... I havnt
>> learned anything new, I memorized all that from books and teaching etc.
I don't think so. I think that you have a lot of information that you
derived from generalizations, analogies, etc (i.e. learning).
>> I would further say that I given the level of knowledge and understanding
>> about the tree that I was intelligent in that area, you could ask me
>> questions and I could answer them, I could conjecture what would happen if
>> I dug the tree up etc.
Are you *sure* that you've been directly told what would happen if you
dug a tree up? What do you think would happen if you dug up a planticus
imaginus? I'm sure that you haven't been specifically told what would happen
then. :-) I think that you have some serious predictive power that is *not*
just rote memorization.
>> Learning does not seem to be a requirment for intelligence, though a good
>> intelligence, and a growing intelligence would need to learn.
Your definition of intelligence is apparently (and correct me if I'm wrong)
how well something deals with it's environment. My contention is that
anything that doesn't learn will necessarily undergo a degradation of their
ability to deal with it's environment. If you agree with this, then why don't
you agree with learning being a requirement for intelligence?
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: James Ratcliff
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] rule-based NL system
I would say "rote memorization" and knowledge / data, IS understanding.
I look outside and I see a tree, I understand that it is a tree, I know its
a tree, I know about leaves and grass and how it grows... I havnt learned
anything new, I memorized all that from books and teaching etc.
I would further say that I given the level of knowledge and understanding
about the tree that I was intelligent in that area, you could ask me
questions and I could answer them, I could conjecture what would happen if I
dug the tree up etc.
Learning does not seem to be a requirment for intelligence, though a good
intelligence, and a growing intelligence would need to learn.
James Ratcliff
Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi James,
I'm going to handle your questions in reverse order . . . .
> Do you think learning is a requirement for understanding, or
intelligence?
Yes, I believe that learning is a requirement for intelligence.
Intelligence is basically how fast you learn. Zero learning equals zero
intelligence.
> a reservation serivce has a world model as well, it knwo about
1000+ airline routes and times, it talks to you, saves your preferences for
outgoign flight, and can use that to think and come up with a suggestion for
an incoming flight, and which airline to take
A reservation service does indeed have a world model but it is a
*very* simple model with very few object types, relationships, and
actions. The 1000+ airline routes and times are merely data within the
model and even if they numbered a million they would not increase the size
of the *model*. But the most important thing is that the model is
absolutely fixed -- i.e. the system doesn't learn.
> and an expert system as having more intelligence due to a richer
world model and more ability to give answers.
I would say that the expert system is more capable but would disagree
that it has more intelligence (unless it has some sort of learning
functionality).
> If we took a 10 year old child, and stopped their ability to learn,
they would still have the ability to do all the things they did before,
can go to the store, and play and fix breakfast etc.
Again, I would phrase this as the child still has their old
capabilities but their intelligence has dropped to zero -- because
realistically, they would not maintain the ability to do all the things
they did before. Initially, yes -- BUT -- slowly and surely, as their
environment changed, they would be less and less capable of dealing with
it as they couldn't learn what they needed to cope with the change.
> But understanding itself doesnt have any special requirement that
it understand New things, just the things that are currently
considering.
Have you seen the things that you're currently considering before?
If so, how is rote memorization different from understanding?
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: James Ratcliff
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [agi] rule-based NL system
Two problems unfortunatly arise quickly there,
1. Internal World Model.
An intelligence must have some form of internal world model, because
this is what it operates on internally, its memory,
People have a complex world model including everythign we have built
up over years, but a reservation serivce has a world model as well, it
knwo about 1000+ airline routes and times, it talks to you, saves your
preferences for outgoign flight, and can use that to think and come up
with a suggestion for an incoming flight, and which airline to take. If
the system contains weather data as well, and can use it, then it could
be more intelligent.
It has a world model built up there, not as complex, but defintly
there, and I would rate that as having some level of "intelligence" and
an expert system as having more intelligence due to a richer world model
and more ability to give answers.
2. Learning.
Probably a contreversial point here, but
Do you think learning is a requirement for understanding, or
intelligence?
For an intelligence, I dont believe it is. If we took a 10 year old
child, and stopped their ability to learn, they would still have the
ability to do all the things they did before, can go to the store, and
play and fix breakfast etc.
Now for an AGI to grow and be able to do more and more things, it
needs to have the ability to learn. But understanding itself doesnt
have any special requirement that it understand New things, just the
things that are currently considering.
Jame Ratcliff
Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What definition
of intelligence would you like to use?
Legg's definition is perfectly fine for me.
> How about the "answering machine" test for intelligence? A machine
> passes
> the
> test if people prefer talking to it over talking to a human. For
> example,
> I
> prefer to buy airline tickets online rather than talk to a travel
> agent.
> To
> pass the answering machine test, I would make the same preference
> given
> only
> voice communication, even if I know I won't be put on hold, charged
> a
> higher
> price, etc. It does not require passing the Turing test. I may be
> perfectly
> aware it is a machine. You may substitute instant messages for voice
> if
> you
> wish.
What does "being preferred by humans" have to do with (almost any
definition
of) intelligence? If you mean that it can solve any problem (i.e. tell
a
caller how to reach any goal -- or better yet even, assist them) then,
sure,
it works for me. If it's only dealing with a limited domain, like
being a
travel agent, then I'd call it a narrow AI. Intelligence is only as
good as
your model of the world and what it allows you to do (which is pretty
much a
paraphrasing of Legg's definition as far as I'm concerned). And if
you're
not using an expandable model, as a calculator is not, then you're not
intelligent.
> I claim that a system that can pass this test "understands" my words
> and
> knows
> what they mean, even if the words are not grounded in nonverbal
> sensorimotor
> experience. Its world model will be different than that of a human,
> but
> so
> what?
And I'll claim that it doesn't understand a thing UNLESS it has a
model of
it's world (which could be text-only for all I care but which has the
behavior necessary for it to accurately answer questions about the
real
world) that it is relating your words to. If it has that and can add
to
it's world as new things are introduced to it from the "real" world,
then
I'm very willing to say that it is intelligent and that it understands
it's
world. If not, you just have an unintelligent program.
> Its world model will be different than that of a human, but so what?
I've never claimed that an intelligence's world model has to be
anything
like that of a human. All I require is that it be effective and
expandable.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Mahoney"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] rule-based NL system
> --- Mark Waser wrote:
>
>> > OK, how about Legg's definition of universal intelligence as a
>> > measure
>> > of
>> > how
>> > a system "understands" its environment?
>>
>> OK. What purpose do you wish to use Legg's definition for? You
>> immediately
>> discard it below . . . .
>
> What definition of intelligence would you like to use?
>
> How about the "answering machine" test for intelligence? A machine
> passes
> the
> test if people prefer talking to it over talking to a human. For
> example,
> I
> prefer to buy airline tickets online rather than talk to a travel
> agent.
> To
> pass the answering machine test, I would make the same preference
> given
> only
> voice communication, even if I know I won't be put on hold, charged
> a
> higher
> price, etc. It does not require passing the Turing test. I may be
> perfectly
> aware it is a machine. You may substitute instant messages for voice
> if
> you
> wish.
>
> I claim that a system that can pass this test "understands" my words
> and
> knows
> what they mean, even if the words are not grounded in nonverbal
> sensorimotor
> experience. Its world model will be different than that of a human,
> but
> so
> what?
>
>
>
> -- Matt Mahoney, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> -----
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