If you believe in principle that no digital computer program can ever be creative, then there's no point in me or anyone else rambling on at length about their own particular approach to digital-computer-program creativity...
One question I have is whether you would be convinced that digital programs ARE capable of true creativity, by any possible actual achievements of digital computer programs... If a digital computer program made a great painting, wrote a great novel, proved a great theorem, patented dozens of innovative inventions, etc. -- would you be willing to admit it's creative, or would you argue that due to its digital nature, it must have achieved these things in a "noncreative" way? Ben On Jan 6, 2008 6:58 PM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well we (Penrose & co) are all headed in roughly the same direction, but > we're taking different routes. > > If you really want the discussion to continue, I think you have to put out > something of your own approach here to "spontaneous creativity" (your terms) > as requested. > > Yes, I still see the mind as following "instructions" a la "briefing", but > only odd ones, not a whole rigid set of them., a la programs. And the > instructions are "open-ended" and non-deterministically open to > interpretation, just as my briefing/instruction to you - "Ben go and get me > something nice for supper" - is. Oh, and the instructions that drive us, > i.e. emotions, are always conflicting, e.g [Ben:] "I might like to.. but do > I really want to get that bastard anything for supper? Or have the time to, > when I am on the very verge of creating my stupendous AGI?" > > Listen, I can go on and on - the big initial deal is the claim that the mind > isn't - & no successful AGI can be - driven by a program, or thoroughgoing > SERIES/SET of instructions - if it is to solve even minimal general > adaptive, let alone hard creative problems. No structured approach will work > for an ill-structured problem. > > You must give some indication of how you think a program CAN be generally > adaptive/ creative - or, I would argue, squares (programs are so square, > man) can be circled :). > > > > Mike, > > > >> The short answer is that I don't believe that computer *programs* can be > >> creative in the hard sense, because they presuppose a line of enquiry, a > >> predetermined approach to a problem - > > ... > >> But I see no reason why computers couldn't be "briefed" rather than > >> programmed, and freely associate across domains rather than working along > >> predetermined lines. > > > > But the computer that is being "briefed" is still running some software > > program, > > hence is still "programmed" -- and its responses are still determined by > > that program (in conjunction w/ the environment, which however it > > perceives > > only thru a digital bit stream) > > > >> I don't however believe that purely *digital* computers are capable of > >> all > >> the literally imaginative powers (as already discussed elsewhere) that > >> are > >> also necessary for true creativity and general intelligence. > > > > I don't know how you define a "literally imaginative power". > > > > So, it seems like you are saying > > > > -- digital computer software can never truly be creative or possess > > general > > intelligence > > > > Is this your assertion? > > > > It is not an original one of course: Penrose, Dreyfus and many others have > > argued the same point. The latter paragraph of yours I've quoted could > > be straight out of "The Emeperor's New Mind" by Penrose. > > > > Penrose then notes that quantum computers can compute only the same > > stuff that digital computers can; so he posits that general intelligence > > is > > possible only for "quantum gravity computers", which is what he posits > > the brain is. > > > > I think Penrose is most probably wrong, but at least I understand what > > he is saying... > > > > I'm just trying to understand what your perspective actually is... > >> > - Release Date: 1/5/2008 11:46 AM > > > > > > > ----- > This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email > To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: > http://v2.listbox.com/member/?&; > ----- This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=82484935-6a7f84
