Ben Goertzel wrote:
Richard,
>> Richard Loosemore wrote:
2) Even if you do come back to me and say that the symbols inside
Novamente all contain all four characteristics, I can only say "so what"
a second time ;-). The question I was asking when I laid down those
four characteristics was "How many physical systems do you know of in
which the system elements are governed by a mechanism that has all four
of these, AND where the system as a whole has a large-scale behavior
that has been mathematically proven to arise from the behaviors of the
elements of the system?"
The answer to that question (I'll save you the trouble) is 'zero'.
But why do you place so much emphasis on mathematical proof?
I don't think that mathematical proof is needed for creating an AGI system.
You are running around the argument again.
I asked you to list all of the complex systems in which the global
behavior had been mathematically proven to arise from the local
mechanisms, but I did *not* say that AGI systems must be mathematically
provable.
So it is just a fruitless sidetrack to start talking about how AGI (or
any other kind of programming) is not mathematically provable. Thanks
for trying to change the subject, but let's stick to the one at hand,
eh? ;-)
Just to make it easier, I will restate the question without implying
that mathematical provability is required for AGI:
Question: "How many systems do you know of in which the system elements
are governed by a mechanism that has all four of these, AND where the
system as a whole has a large-scale behavior that has been shown (by any
method of "showing" except detailed simulation of the system) to arise
from the behaviors of the elements of the system? I would like an
example of any case of a complex system in which there are large numbers
of individual elements where each element has (a) memory for recent
events, (b) adaptation and development of its character over long
periods of time, where that adaptation is sensitive to influences from
other elements, (c) an identity, so that what one element does to
another will depend crucially on which element it is, and (d)
nonlinearity in the mechanisms that determine how the elements relate
and adapt."
Show me any non-trivial system, whatsoever, in which there is general
agreement that all four of these characteristics are present in the
interacting elements, and where someone figured out ahead of time what
the overall behavior of the system was going to be, given only knowledge
of the element mechanisms, and without simulating the whole system and
looking at the simulation.
There does not have to be a mathematical proof, just some derivation
that allows me to see an example of someone predicting the behavior from
the mechanisms.
Anything at all.
Just one example would do.
Richard Loosemore
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agi
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