Ben Goertzel wrote:
Richard,
Question: "How many systems do you know of in which the system elements
are governed by a mechanism that has all four of these, AND where the system
as a whole has a large-scale behavior that has been shown (by any method of
"showing" except detailed simulation of the system) to arise from the
behaviors of the elements of the system? I would like an example of any
case of a complex system in which there are large numbers of individual
elements where each element has (a) memory for recent events, (b) adaptation
and development of its character over long periods of time, where that
adaptation is sensitive to influences from other elements, (c) an identity,
so that what one element does to another will depend crucially on which
element it is, and (d) nonlinearity in the mechanisms that determine how the
elements relate and adapt."
I don't really understand your definition of "identity" in the above, could you
clarify, preferably with examples?
This is an almost trivial feature. Elementary particles of a given type
are all identical, so a theory of how particles interact does not have
to take into account the particular identity of the interactees. There
is a conceivable universe in which interactions do depend on the
individual identity of particles, rather than just their type.
This one factor makes physical theories much simpler than they would
otherwise be.
Show me any non-trivial system, whatsoever, in which there is general
agreement that all four of these characteristics are present in the
interacting elements, and where someone figured out ahead of time what the
overall behavior of the system was going to be, given only knowledge of the
element mechanisms, and without simulating the whole system and looking at
the simulation.
There does not have to be a mathematical proof, just some derivation that
allows me to see an example of someone predicting the behavior from the
mechanisms.
I'm not sure what you mean by "predicting the behavior."
With the Pet Brain, which does seem to fulfill the criteria you mention above
(pending my new confusion about your meaning of "identity") (with the Atoms
in the Novamente AtomTable as the "elements" in your description), one cannot
predict the precise course of development of the system ... we can't predict
what any one pet will do in response to it's environment ... but we do
understand
what sorts of behaviors the pets are capable of... based on general
understanding
of how the system and its dynamics work...
No: I am specifically asking for some system other than an AGI system,
because I am looking for an external example of someone overcoming the
complex systems problem.
(I am also asking for more than "we do understand what sorts of
behaviors the pets are capable of... based on general understanding of
how the system and its dynamics work." That is just handwaving -
personal assurance without proof.)
The example system must be understood well enough that independent
observers could *demonstrate* that the global characteristics (any
global characteristics) of the system would arise, given the known (or
chosen) local mechanism.
I don't care how they demonstrate it, so long as it is rigorous and not
just guesswork or personal assurance or intuition.
Richard Loosemore
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agi
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