Re: [agi] How do we know we don't know?

Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:16:45 -0700 

Brad,
Ah,, perhaps there has been a failure of communication - it sounded (rightly or wrongly) from your original post, like your "things I don't know" list was being used DURING the process of perception/ categorization, and so was key to producing the "I don't know this" feeling. That was hard to understand and accept. If you're just saying that AFTER our brain has failed to recognize something, it effectively (as you discuss) stores those failures on an "I don't know list", that is unobjectionable. 


James,


Someone ventured the *opinion* that keeping such a list of "things I don't 
know" was "nonsensical," but I have yet to see any evidence or 
well-reasoned argument backing that opinion.  So, it's just an opinion. 
One with which I, obviously, do not agree.



There are two "stages" of "not knowing."  The first is when the agent 
doesn't know it doesn't know something.  It's clueless.  This can be such 
a dangerous stage to be in that one can imagine the agent might be 
equipped with a "knee-jerk" type reaction, which evinces itself in a 
variety of ways.  One of those ways could be to promote this thing it 
didn't know it didn't know to the next stage of "not knowing"  by storing 
it (subconsciously, most likely) in a list of "things I know I don't 
know."  I use the term "list" generically.  I don't argue that the human 
brain maintains knowledge in list structures or that this would 
necessarily be the way this information is stored in an AGI agent).



I fail to see how saving this type of information in memory is any 
different from saving any other type of information.  It's a positive fact 
about the world as that world relates to the individual human (or AGI 
agent).  The first way having such a list might help is in optimizing 
memory search.  The next time the agent encounters a thing not known on 
this list, it won't have to perform an exhaustive search of things it 
knows to come to the "feeling of not knowing." It's right there on the 
(comparatively short) list of things it doesn't know (which would be 
searched first, of course).  In addition, if the agent's experience in the 
world results in repeated hits on a particular item in this list, this 
could be a factor in producing the desire to learn that is such a 
characteristic behavior of our species.  Once the thing is known, it is, 
of course, removed from the "not known" list.  If a thing on the list is 
not encountered again for a long period of time, it might just fall off 
the list. Both of these characteristics of such a list would work, 
subconsciously, to keep the list both small and relevant.


Cheers,

Brad


James Ratcliff wrote:

Sure,
search is at the root of all processing, be it human or AI.


How we each go about the search, and how efficient we are at the task are 
different, and what exactly we are searching for, and exponential 
explosion.



But some type of search is done, whether we are consciously aware of our 
brains doing the search or not.



Given a bit of context information about the question should allow us to 
use some heuristics to look at a smaller area of knowledge bases in our 
brains, or in a computer's memory.



Having a list of "things we dont know" is nonsensical as has been pointed 
out, when it comes to individual terms, but something like a aggregate 
estimate of knowledge known could be computed.



I myself know a little about baseball .... say 10%, but baseball history 
and world series statistics would be more like 0.1%


James Ratcliff

--- On *Tue, 7/29/08, Brad Paulsen /<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:

    James,


    So, you agree that some sort of search must take place before the 
"feeling

    of not knowing" presents itself?  Of course, "realizing we don't

    have a lot of information" results from some type of a search and not 
a separate process

    (at least you didn't posit any).

    Thanks for your comments!
    Cheers
    Brad

    James Ratcliff wrote:

    > It is fairly simple at that point, we have enough context to have a 
very > limited domain

    > world series - baseball
    > 1924
    > answer is a team,

    > so we can do a lookup in our database easily enough, or realize 
that we > really dont have a lot of information about baseball in our 
mindset.

    > > And for the other one, it would just be a
     strait term match.
    > > James Ratcliff
    > > _______________________________________
    > James Ratcliff - http://falazar.com
    > Looking for something...
    > > --- On *Mon, 7/28/08, Brad Paulsen /<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/*
    wrote:
    > >     From: Brad Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    >     Subject: Re: [agi] How do we know we don't know?
    >     To: [email protected]
    >     Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 4:12 PM
    > >     Jim Bromer wrote:
    >     > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brad Paulsen
    >     <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
    >     >> All,
    >     >>    What does fomlepung mean?
    >     >>
    >     >> If your immediate (mental) response was "I don't
    know."
    >     it means you're not
    >     >> a slang-slinging Norwegian.  But, how did your brain produce
    that
    >    "feeling
    >     >> of not knowing"?  And, how did it produce that feeling
    so fast?
    >     >>
    >     >> Your brain may have been able to do a massively-parallel
    search of
    >     your
    >     >> entire memory and
    >      come up "empty."  But, if it does this,
    >     it's subconscious.
    >     >>  No one to whom I've presented the above question has
    reported a
    >     conscious
    >     >> "feeling of searching" before having the conscious
    feeling
    >     of not knowing.
    >     >>
    >     >> Brad

    >     > >     > My guess that initial recognition must be based on 
the surface
    >     > features of an input.  If this is true, then that could 
suggest

    that
    >     > our initial recognition reactions are stimulated by distinct
    >     > components (or distinct groupings of components) that are
     found
    in the
    >     > surface input data.
    >     > Jim Bromer

    >     > >     > >     Hmmm.  That particular query may not have been 
the best example since,
    to a >     non-Norwegian speaker, the phonological surface feature of 
that

    statement alone
    > >     could account for the "feeling of not knowing."  In other
    words, the
    >     word >     "fomlepung" just "doesn't sound right."  Good
    point. >     But, that may only

    >      explain >     how we know we don't know "strange sounding" 
words.

    > >     Let's try another example:
    > >     Which team won the 1924 World Series?
    > >     Cheers,
    > >     Brad
    > >     > -------------------------------------------
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