David Clark wrote:
Richard:
I was one of the first people to help you get on the AGI list years ago
and I have appreciated many of your emails but Ben’s comments below are
right on the money.
Although I don’t agree with many of the technical points made by Ed
Porter, he is obviously very intelligent (as are you) and has much
interesting information and enthusiasm to bring to the table concerning
AGI. I look forward to his emails even more than most of the other
posters on this list.
I for one, very much appreciate the effort made by Ben in writing this
email and I would appreciate more information on AGI and less chest
thumping and ego in the emails.
Calling other people’s ideas stupid, ridiculous etc IS the same as
calling other people the same and it hurts just as much.
David,
Several people have repeated the accusation that I am guilty of
namecalling and engaging in personal attacks that are just as
disgraceful as those that Ed Porter just delivered.
You repeat the accusation yourself when you say "Calling other people’s
ideas stupid, ridiculous etc IS the same as calling other people the same."
David, in the spirit of scientific objectivity, I just did a search for
the word "stupid" in all of the 811 messages that I have ever posted to
the AGI list.
There were 58 matches, and I just laboriously analyzed every one of them.
Of the 58 total, 41 were completely neutral references to some abstract
thing that was 'stupid', or to phrases like 'stupidly simple', with no
bearing on anything that a person on the list said (for example I once
said "what if a stupid AI hacker were to...").
On 2 occasions I responded to Ed Porter by denying his accusations, and
the word was not used against him.
On one occasion I quoted Ed Porter saying to me "Despite your statement
to the contrary --- despite your "FURY" --- I did get your point. Not
everybody beside Richard Loosemore is stupid." This was intented to be
a mild insult directed at me, although it is kind of confused (he
meant to say "intelligent", so I suspect that this was a Freudian slip).
On 12 occasions the word was used by someone else, and I just quoted it.
The other person was not directing the word at me.
On one occasion I used the word to refer, in the abstract, to some
people on the SL4 list who had speculated that I may have fabricated my
degree qualifications. This was NOT directed at the person I was
talking to, and it was fully justified by the estraordinary behavior of
the people involved. Here is the exact quote: "(Sorry for the plug,
but you know the kind of stupid nonsense I have had to take from some
unmentionable amateurs on these lists who attack arguments by making
libelous accusations about a person's qualifications and credentials)".
On one occasion I deliverd an indirect insult by saying that "[The
mathematical terms] "Rings" and "Models" are appropriated terms, but the
mathematicians involved would never be so stupid as to confuse them with
the real things. Marcus Hutter and yourself are doing precisely that."
I did not intend the rudeness, it slipped out as an accident of the
way I was phrasing my thoughts, and when Ben pointed out that this was
rude, I immediately accepted the blame and apologized with these words:
"You got me bang to rights there guv'nor: I apologize for the "s" word.
Please re-read, with the word "naive" substituted instead."
--------------------------
So it seems that when we look at the evidence for me using this one word
"stupid" to criticize other people's ideas, there was only one occasion.
And even then it was just an accident of phrasing and it was implied,
not direct. And, to top it all, I immediately apologized for the error.
I have just done a lot of work to discover these statistics, and I think
it would be fair to say that there is not a shred of evidence that I am
in the habit of accusing anyone of being stupid, or even that I use the
word 'stupid' to describe their ideas.
What do you suppose would happen if we went and looked to see how many
times I call other people's ideas "ridiculous"?
Here you are: 31 matches. Most of them neutral comments like
"ridiculously small", except for three that were pretty mild comments
and one serious argument:
(1) "... they then produce ridiculous definitions, like Hutter's...".
(2) "I was really trying to make the point that a statement like "The
singularity WILL end the human race" is completely ridiculous."
(3) "That is just one example of how he pulls conclusions out of thin
air. The first time I read this paper I found the whole thing too
ridiculous to read after the first few times this happened."
(4) One use of 'ridiculous' to respond to a damning insult and a slew of
false criticisms from Josh Hall - he had said "I find your argument
quotidian and lacking in depth...". Although I should not have been so
offended, I was. I responded to this insult by saying "You said things
about complex systems that were, quite frankly, ridiculous: Turing-
machine equivalence, for example, has nothing to do with this.".
So in a total of 811 posts there were only five places where I used the
word 'stupid' or the word 'ridiculous'. One was an accident that I
immediately apologized for. Two uses of 'ridiculous' were extremely
mild, not directed at the person I was talking to, and both of them were
pretty reasonable given the topic. One other use of 'ridiculous' was
completely justificable (item 2 above).
There was just one time when I used the word 'ridiculous' in a direct
and angry attack on another person's statements, and that was after the
other person had suddenly come out with a deliberate insult.
Do you feel that this level of abusive behavior on my part justifies
your comment that "Calling other people’s ideas stupid, ridiculous etc
IS the same as calling other people the same."? Bear in mind that in
the course of yesterday evening Ed Porter threw at me a total of 14
personal insults, all of them of a type that I have never, ever used.
Do you really, genuinely believe that when I say something like "That is
just one example of how he pulls conclusions out of thin air. The first
time I read this paper I found the whole thing too ridiculous to read
after the first few times this happened", this behavior of mine is just
as disgraceful as comments directed straight at my face like "It is a
shame your intelligence is not freed from the childishness, and
neediness, and dishonesty of your ego", and "if you are at all concerned
with honesty and truth --- rather than personal pomposity ..."?
Richard Loosemore
P.S. If you want me to give you a copy of all the posts I have written,
so you can analyze them for other words, please contact me off list and
I will send them to you.
-------------------------------------------
agi
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