I apologize: 1/16. Which, to be fair, is half as many, and somewhat diminishes the point I was trying to make. ,_,
On 8/3/08, Eric Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> David, in the spirit of scientific objectivity, I just did a search for >> the word "stupid" in all >> of the 811 messages that I have ever posted to the AGI list. > >> There were 58 matches, and I just laboriously analyzed every one of them. > > This is off the cuff but, Richard, if 1/8 of your messages included > the word 'stupid', this could explain why the general consensus is > that you've been insulting people's intelligence. > > > > On 8/3/08, Richard Loosemore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Ben Goertzel wrote: >>> >>> Goodness ... I find this whole thread has gotten a bit over-the-top ... >>> but I guess it's at least humorous, in a perverse sort of way... >>> >>> For sure: the biggest obstacle in the way of human intellect creating >>> superhuman AGI, is humans' emotional nature ;-p >> >> I am not sure I understand this response at all. >> >> Some serious accusations were made, so I checked them. >> >> The accusations were derogatory, and they turned out to be unfounded. >> >> You are saying that this is humorous? >> >> >> Richard Loosemore >> >> >> >> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Richard Loosemore <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: >>> >>> David Clark wrote: >>> >>> Richard: >>> >>> I was one of the first people to help you get on the AGI list >>> years ago and I have appreciated many of your emails but Ben's >>> comments below are right on the money. >>> >>> Although I don't agree with many of the technical points made by >>> Ed Porter, he is obviously very intelligent (as are you) and has >>> much interesting information and enthusiasm to bring to the >>> table concerning AGI. I look forward to his emails even more >>> than most of the other posters on this list. >>> >>> I for one, very much appreciate the effort made by Ben in >>> writing this email and I would appreciate more information on >>> AGI and less chest thumping and ego in the emails. >>> >>> Calling other people's ideas stupid, ridiculous etc IS the same >>> as calling other people the same and it hurts just as much. >>> >>> >>> David, >>> >>> Several people have repeated the accusation that I am guilty of >>> namecalling and engaging in personal attacks that are just as >>> disgraceful as those that Ed Porter just delivered. >>> >>> You repeat the accusation yourself when you say "Calling other >>> people's ideas stupid, ridiculous etc IS the same as calling other >>> people the same." >>> >>> David, in the spirit of scientific objectivity, I just did a search >>> for the word "stupid" in all of the 811 messages that I have ever >>> posted to the AGI list. >>> >>> There were 58 matches, and I just laboriously analyzed every one of >>> them. >>> >>> Of the 58 total, 41 were completely neutral references to some >>> abstract thing that was 'stupid', or to phrases like 'stupidly >>> simple', with no bearing on anything that a person on the list said >>> (for example I once said "what if a stupid AI hacker were to..."). >>> >>> On 2 occasions I responded to Ed Porter by denying his accusations, >>> and the word was not used against him. >>> >>> On one occasion I quoted Ed Porter saying to me "Despite your >>> statement to the contrary --- despite your "FURY" --- I did get your >>> point. Not everybody beside Richard Loosemore is stupid." This was >>> intented to be a mild insult directed at me, although it is kind of >>> confused (he meant to say "intelligent", so I suspect that this was >>> a Freudian slip). >>> >>> On 12 occasions the word was used by someone else, and I just quoted >>> it. The other person was not directing the word at me. >>> >>> On one occasion I used the word to refer, in the abstract, to some >>> people on the SL4 list who had speculated that I may have fabricated >>> my degree qualifications. This was NOT directed at the person I was >>> talking to, and it was fully justified by the estraordinary behavior >>> of the people involved. Here is the exact quote: "(Sorry for the >>> plug, but you know the kind of stupid nonsense I have had to take >>> from some unmentionable amateurs on these lists who attack arguments >>> by making libelous accusations about a person's qualifications and >>> credentials)". >>> >>> On one occasion I deliverd an indirect insult by saying that "[The >>> mathematical terms] "Rings" and "Models" are appropriated terms, but >>> the mathematicians involved would never be so stupid as to confuse >>> them with the real things. Marcus Hutter and yourself are doing >>> precisely that." I did not intend the rudeness, it slipped out as >>> an accident of the way I was phrasing my thoughts, and when Ben >>> pointed out that this was rude, I immediately accepted the blame and >>> apologized with these words: "You got me bang to rights there >>> guv'nor: I apologize for the "s" word. Please re-read, with the >>> word "naive" substituted instead." >>> >>> -------------------------- >>> >>> So it seems that when we look at the evidence for me using this one >>> word "stupid" to criticize other people's ideas, there was only one >>> occasion. And even then it was just an accident of phrasing and it >>> was implied, not direct. And, to top it all, I immediately >>> apologized for the error. >>> >>> I have just done a lot of work to discover these statistics, and I >>> think it would be fair to say that there is not a shred of evidence >>> that I am in the habit of accusing anyone of being stupid, or even >>> that I use the word 'stupid' to describe their ideas. >>> >>> What do you suppose would happen if we went and looked to see how >>> many times I call other people's ideas "ridiculous"? >>> >>> Here you are: 31 matches. Most of them neutral comments like >>> "ridiculously small", except for three that were pretty mild >>> comments and one serious argument: >>> >>> (1) "... they then produce ridiculous definitions, like Hutter's...". >>> >>> (2) "I was really trying to make the point that a statement like >>> "The singularity WILL end the human race" is completely ridiculous." >>> >>> (3) "That is just one example of how he pulls conclusions out of >>> thin air. The first time I read this paper I found the whole thing >>> too ridiculous to read after the first few times this happened." >>> >>> (4) One use of 'ridiculous' to respond to a damning insult and a >>> slew of false criticisms from Josh Hall - he had said "I find your >>> argument quotidian and lacking in depth...". Although I should not >>> have been so offended, I was. I responded to this insult by saying >>> "You said things about complex systems that were, quite frankly, >>> ridiculous: Turing- machine equivalence, for example, has nothing to >>> do with this.". >>> >>> >>> So in a total of 811 posts there were only five places where I used >>> the word 'stupid' or the word 'ridiculous'. One was an accident >>> that I immediately apologized for. Two uses of 'ridiculous' were >>> extremely mild, not directed at the person I was talking to, and >>> both of them were pretty reasonable given the topic. One other use >>> of 'ridiculous' was completely justificable (item 2 above). >>> >>> There was just one time when I used the word 'ridiculous' in a >>> direct and angry attack on another person's statements, and that was >>> after the other person had suddenly come out with a deliberate >>> insult. >>> >>> Do you feel that this level of abusive behavior on my part justifies >>> your comment that "Calling other people's ideas stupid, ridiculous >>> etc IS the same as calling other people the same."? Bear in mind >>> that in the course of yesterday evening Ed Porter threw at me a >>> total of 14 personal insults, all of them of a type that I have >>> never, ever used. >>> >>> Do you really, genuinely believe that when I say something like >>> "That is just one example of how he pulls conclusions out of thin >>> air. The first time I read this paper I found the whole thing too >>> ridiculous to read after the first few times this happened", this >>> behavior of mine is just as disgraceful as comments directed >>> straight at my face like "It is a shame your intelligence is not >>> freed from the childishness, and neediness, and dishonesty of your >>> ego", and "if you are at all concerned with honesty and truth --- >>> rather than personal pomposity ..."? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Richard Loosemore >>> >>> P.S. If you want me to give you a copy of all the posts I have >>> written, so you can analyze them for other words, please contact me >>> off list and I will send them to you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> agi >>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Goertzel, PhD >>> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >>> Director of Research, SIAI >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> >>> "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first >>> overcome " - Dr Samuel Johnson >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | Modify >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >>> Your Subscription [Powered by Listbox] <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> agi >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=108809214-a0d121 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
