Domain effectiveness (a.k.a. intelligence) is predicated upon having an 
effective internal model of that domain.

Language production is the extraction and packaging of applicable parts of the 
internal model for transmission to others.
Conversely, language understanding is for the reception (and integration) of 
model portions developed by others (i.e. learning from a teacher).

The better your internal models, the more effective/intelligent you are.

BUT!  This also holds true for language!  Concrete unadorned statements convey 
a lot less information than statements loaded with adjectives, adverbs, or even 
more markedly analogies (or innuendos or . . . ).
A child cannot pick up the same amount of information from a sentence that they 
think that they understand (and do understand to some degree) that an adult can.
Language is a knowledge domain like any other and high intelligences can use it 
far more effectively than lower intelligences.

** Or, in other words, I am disagreeing with the statement that "the process 
itself needs not much intelligence".

Saying that the understanding of language itself is simple is like saying that 
chess is simple because you understand the rules of the game.
Godel's Incompleteness Theorem can be used to show that there is no upper bound 
on the complexity of language and the intelligence necessary to pack and 
extract meaning/knowledge into/from language.

Language is *NOT* just a top-level communications protocol because it is not 
fully-specified and because it is tremendously context-dependent (not to 
mention entirely Godellian).  These two reasons are why it *IS* inextricably 
tied into intelligence.

I *might* agree that the concrete language of lower primates and young children 
is separate from intelligence, but there is far more going on in adult language 
than a simple communications protocol.

E-mail programs are simply point-to-point repeaters of language (NOT meaning!)  
Intelligences generally don't exactly repeat language but *try* to repeat 
meaning.  The game of telephone is a tremendous example of why language *IS* 
tied to intelligence (or look at the results of translating simple phrases into 
another language and back -- "The drink is strong but the meat is rotten").  
Translating language to and from meaning (i.e. your domain model) is the 
essence of intelligence.

How simple is the understanding of the above?  How much are you having to fight 
to relate it to your internal model (assuming that it's even compatible :-)?

I don't believe that intelligence is inherent upon language EXCEPT that 
language is necessary to convey knowledge/meaning (in order to build 
intelligence in a reasonable timeframe) and that language is influenced by and 
influences intelligence since it is basically the core of the critical 
meta-domains of teaching, learning, discovery, and alteration of your internal 
model (the effectiveness of which *IS* intelligence).  Future AGI and humans 
will undoubtedly not only have a much richer language but also a much richer 
repertoire of second-order (and higher) features expressed via language.

** Or, in other words, I am strongly disagreeing that "intelligence is 
separated from language understanding".  I believe that language understanding 
is the necessary tool that intelligence is built with since it is what puts the 
*contents* of intelligence (i.e. the domain model) into intelligence .  Trying 
to build an intelligence without language understanding is like trying to build 
it with just machine language or by using only observable data points rather 
than trying to build those things into more complex entities like third-, 
fourth-, and fifth-generation programming languages instead of machine language 
and/or knowledge instead of just data points.

BTW -- Please note, however, that the above does not imply that I believe that 
NLU is the place to start in developing AGI.  Quite the contrary -- NLU rests 
upon such a large domain model that I believe that it is counter-productive to 
start there.  I believe that we need to star with limited domains and learn 
about language, internal models, and grounding without brittleness in tractable 
domains before attempting to extend that knowledge to larger domains.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Hart 
  To: [email protected] 
  Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 5:30 AM
  Subject: Re: AW: [agi] Re: Defining AGI



  An excellent post, thanks!

  IMO, it raises the bar for discussion of language and AGI, and should be 
carefully considered by the authors of future posts on the topic of language 
and AGI. If the AGI list were a forum, Matthias's post should be pinned!

  -dave


  On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 6:58 PM, Dr. Matthias Heger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

    The process of outwardly expressing meaning may be fundamental to any social
    intelligence but the process itself needs not much intelligence.

    Every email program can receive meaning, store meaning and it can express it
    outwardly in order to send it to another computer. It even can do it without
    loss of any information. Regarding this point, it even outperforms humans
    already who have no conscious access to the full meaning (information) in
    their brains.

    The only thing which needs much intelligence from the nowadays point of view
    is the learning of the process of outwardly expressing meaning, i.e. the
    learning of language. The understanding of language itself is simple.

    To show that intelligence is separated from language understanding I have
    already given the example that a person could have spoken with Einstein but
    needed not to have the same intelligence. Another example are humans who
    cannot hear and speak but are intelligent. They only have the problem to get
    the knowledge from other humans since language is the common social
    communication protocol to transfer knowledge from brain to brain.

    In my opinion language is overestimated in AI for the following reason:
    When we think we believe that we think in our language. From this we
    conclude that our thoughts are inherently structured by linguistic elements.
    And if our thoughts are so deeply connbected with language then it is a 
small
    step to conclude that our whole intelligence depends inherently on language.

    But this is a misconception.
    We do not have conscious control over all of our thoughts. Most of the
    activities within our brain we cannot be aware of when we think.
    Nevertheless it is very useful and even essential for human intelligence
    being able to observe at least a subset of the own thoughts. It is this
    subset which we usually identify with the whole set of thoughts. But in fact
    it is just a tiny subset of all what happens in the 10^11 neurons.
    For the top-level observation of the own thoughts the brain uses the learned
    language.
    But this is no contradiction to the point that language is just a
    communication protocol and nothing else. The brain translates its patterns
    into language and routes this information to its own input regions.

    The reason why the brain uses language in order to observe its own thoughts
    is probably the following:
    If a person A wants to communicate some of its patterns to a person B then
    it has solve two problems:
    1. How to compress the patterns?
    2. How to send the patterns to the person B?
    The solution for the two problems is language.

    If a brain wants to observe its own thoughts it has to solve the same
    problems.
    The thoughts have to be compressed. If not you would observe every element
    of your thoughts and you would end up in an explosion of complexity. So why
    not use the same compression algorithm as it is used for communication with
    other people? That's the reason why the brain uses language when it observes
    its own thoughts.

    This phenomenon leads to the misconception that language is inherently
    connected with thoughts and intelligence. In fact it is just a top level
    communication protocol between two brains and within a single brain.

    Future AGI will have a much broader bandwidth and even for the current
    possibilities of technology human language would be a weak communication
    protocol for its internal observation of its own thoughts.

    - Matthias







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