According to the known laws of physics, analog computers cannot compute anything different than what digital computers can... if by "compute" you mean "produce results observable by finite-precision instruments like human eyes and ears"
-- ben g On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Ben, > > I don't understand what difference B) makes - or how it would affect the > objection that current approaches are discrete, stepped vs the dynamic, > continuous reality of conscious processing. > > (My own take would be that current computers can't handle the movie of > consciousness - although at times they appear to come close - they pretty > clearly represent only one half at best of a complete brain/mind. And logic > and mathematics are clearly opposed to and different from the visual & other > arts, and again pretty clearly represent only one half of the "two > cultures". One should add that these two halves are not just opposed but > complementary and interdependent. Such conflicted, divided design BTW is > absolutely fundamental to biological design - from the brain to muscles to > the autonomic nervous system. It would be strange if invention, especially > in the coming decade of video doesn't take a cue from nature to develop > sophisticated analogical as well as digital computers) > > Ben: > Well, you need to distinguish between > > A) "the contemporary, von Neumann computer as a metaphor" > > and > > B) "the abstract, mathematical computer as a theoretical framework" > > These are really quite different things ... > > -- Ben G > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > >> Ben, >> >> He is v. explicitly talking about a "paradigm shift" and the >> mind-as-computer as just one in a series of technological metaphors. Perhaps >> this will be clearer if you look at his latest book The Continuity of Mind >> on Amazon, where you can read the introduction. (Sheer philosophy-of-science >> commonsense tells you that at least broadly he has to be right - IOW the >> computer as we know it, will sooner or later be replaced by another >> radically more sophisticated machine). >> >> Ben: >> >> I just want to note that there is no real distinction btw >> continuous-variable models like this as typically used, and computable, >> Turing-machine-type models. >> >> For instance, biologists do detailed simulations of the continuous >> variables underlying neural activity, on digital computers. And nonlinear >> continuous-variable equations are normally solved using computational >> algorithms. >> >> In principle, the real number line contains uncomputable numbers. In >> every single practical application, these are irrelevant, and one could >> ignore them and use only a finite set of numbers instead. >> >> I outlined the detailed reasons why this is the case, in a recent blog >> post that was already discussed on this list, >> >> >> http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2008/10/are-uncomputable-entities-useless-for.html >> >> -- Ben G >> >> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >> >>> This is interesting because it challenges the discrete, stepped, Turing >>> machine conception of thought with a continuous dynamics model. {If anyone >>> knows of more stuff along these lines, I'd be v. interested]. Here's a pdf >>> of Spivey's ideas. >>> >>> >>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary;jsessionid=5E238B3B3E62E2AF7151EF8B31599E4D?doi=10.1.1.92.3260 >>> >>> >>> *ICBS SEMINAR >>> Friday, November 7, 2008 >>> **11:am - 12:30 pm >>> 5101 Tolman Hall >>> * >>> * Michael Spivey, **Department of Cognitive Science, UC Merced >>> * >>> >>> *"Continuous Temporal Dynamics in Real-time Cognition"* >>> ** >>> >>> Rather than a sequence of logical operations performed on discrete >>> symbols, real-time cognition is better described as continuously changing >>> patterns of neuronal activity. The continuity in these dynamics indicates >>> that, in between describable states of mind, much of our mental activity >>> does not lend itself to the linguistic labels relied on by much of >>> psychology. I will discuss eye-tracking and computer-mouse-tracking >>> evidence for this temporal continuity in spoken word recognition, sentence >>> comprehension, categorization, and even decision-making. I will also >>> provide geometric visualizations of mental activity depicted as a continuous >>> trajectory through a neuronal state space. In this theoretical framework, >>> close visitations of labeled attractors may constitute word recognition >>> events and object recognition events, but the majority of the mental >>> trajectory traverses unlabeled regions of state space, resulting in >>> multifarious mixtures of mental states. >>> >>> >>> >>> For more about ICBS: http://icbs.berkeley.edu/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Josephine O'Shaughnessy -Human Resources >>> Helen Wills Neuroscience Institute (HWNI) >>> 3210F Tolman Hall MC 3192 >>> University of California, Berkeley >>> Berkeley, CA 94720 >>> ph (510) 643-1274 >>> fax: off-campus (510) 666-2593 >>> fax: on-campus 6-2593 >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >>> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >> Director of Research, SIAI >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, >> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance >> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give >> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch >> manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die >> gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC > Director of Research, SIAI > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher > a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, > build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, > cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, > program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. > Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein > > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=117534816-b15a34 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
