Mike, These are old debates, I read and thought about them decades ago and I don't see that any new ideas or information have been added recently...
And, for sure, the division of the brain into different hemispheres has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the issue of whether computation theory is an adequate framework for modeling or analyzing thought... So you are right that I don't have much desire to explore these issues in conversation now. It's just that they bore me, due to excessive repetition over the course of my life ;-p Another problem with discussing these issues with you is that there is a constant confusion between -- areas where we just have a genuine difference of intuition, about things that are not proven either way -- instances where you just misunderstand some piece of math or science due to lack of background This often makes the conversations needlessly lengthy and frustrating, from my point of view... -- Ben G On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Ben, > > This overlaps with the "computable universe" thread - the laws of physics > don't relate to any form of mind or mentation or semiotics or reflection let > alone computation. IOW you're saying ths is what you *think* without giving > a valid reason or really wanting to explore the Spivey propositions. Fine. > But maybe you should ask yourself why *is* the brain divided the way it is? > According to you there's no reason. > > Ben, > > According to the known laws of physics, analog computers cannot compute > anything different than what digital computers can... > if by "compute" you mean "produce results observable by finite-precision > instruments like human eyes and ears" > > -- ben g > > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > >> Ben, >> >> I don't understand what difference B) makes - or how it would affect the >> objection that current approaches are discrete, stepped vs the dynamic, >> continuous reality of conscious processing. >> >> (My own take would be that current computers can't handle the movie of >> consciousness - although at times they appear to come close - they pretty >> clearly represent only one half at best of a complete brain/mind. And logic >> and mathematics are clearly opposed to and different from the visual & other >> arts, and again pretty clearly represent only one half of the "two >> cultures". One should add that these two halves are not just opposed but >> complementary and interdependent. Such conflicted, divided design BTW is >> absolutely fundamental to biological design - from the brain to muscles to >> the autonomic nervous system. It would be strange if invention, especially >> in the coming decade of video doesn't take a cue from nature to develop >> sophisticated analogical as well as digital computers) >> >> Ben: >> Well, you need to distinguish between >> >> A) "the contemporary, von Neumann computer as a metaphor" >> >> and >> >> B) "the abstract, mathematical computer as a theoretical framework" >> >> These are really quite different things ... >> >> -- Ben G >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >> >>> Ben, >>> >>> He is v. explicitly talking about a "paradigm shift" and the >>> mind-as-computer as just one in a series of technological metaphors. Perhaps >>> this will be clearer if you look at his latest book The Continuity of Mind >>> on Amazon, where you can read the introduction. (Sheer philosophy-of-science >>> commonsense tells you that at least broadly he has to be right - IOW the >>> computer as we know it, will sooner or later be replaced by another >>> radically more sophisticated machine). >>> >>> Ben: >>> >>> I just want to note that there is no real distinction btw >>> continuous-variable models like this as typically used, and computable, >>> Turing-machine-type models. >>> >>> For instance, biologists do detailed simulations of the continuous >>> variables underlying neural activity, on digital computers. And nonlinear >>> continuous-variable equations are normally solved using computational >>> algorithms. >>> >>> In principle, the real number line contains uncomputable numbers. In >>> every single practical application, these are irrelevant, and one could >>> ignore them and use only a finite set of numbers instead. >>> >>> I outlined the detailed reasons why this is the case, in a recent blog >>> post that was already discussed on this list, >>> >>> >>> http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2008/10/are-uncomputable-entities-useless-for.html >>> >>> -- Ben G >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >>> >>>> This is interesting because it challenges the discrete, stepped, >>>> Turing machine conception of thought with a continuous dynamics model. {If >>>> anyone knows of more stuff along these lines, I'd be v. interested]. Here's >>>> a pdf of Spivey's ideas. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary;jsessionid=5E238B3B3E62E2AF7151EF8B31599E4D?doi=10.1.1.92.3260 >>>> >>>> >>>> *ICBS SEMINAR >>>> Friday, November 7, 2008 >>>> **11:am - 12:30 pm >>>> 5101 Tolman Hall >>>> * >>>> * Michael Spivey, **Department of Cognitive Science, UC Merced >>>> * >>>> >>>> *"Continuous Temporal Dynamics in Real-time Cognition"* >>>> ** >>>> >>>> Rather than a sequence of logical operations performed on discrete >>>> symbols, real-time cognition is better described as continuously changing >>>> patterns of neuronal activity. The continuity in these dynamics indicates >>>> that, in between describable states of mind, much of our mental activity >>>> does not lend itself to the linguistic labels relied on by much of >>>> psychology. I will discuss eye-tracking and computer-mouse-tracking >>>> evidence for this temporal continuity in spoken word recognition, sentence >>>> comprehension, categorization, and even decision-making. I will also >>>> provide geometric visualizations of mental activity depicted as a >>>> continuous >>>> trajectory through a neuronal state space. In this theoretical framework, >>>> close visitations of labeled attractors may constitute word recognition >>>> events and object recognition events, but the majority of the mental >>>> trajectory traverses unlabeled regions of state space, resulting in >>>> multifarious mixtures of mental states. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For more about ICBS: http://icbs.berkeley.edu/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Josephine O'Shaughnessy -Human Resources >>>> Helen Wills Neuroscience Institute (HWNI) >>>> 3210F Tolman Hall MC 3192 >>>> University of California, Berkeley >>>> Berkeley, CA 94720 >>>> ph (510) 643-1274 >>>> fax: off-campus (510) 666-2593 >>>> fax: on-campus 6-2593 >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >>>> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Goertzel, PhD >>> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >>> Director of Research, SIAI >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, >>> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance >>> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give >>> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch >>> manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die >>> gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >>> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >>> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >> Director of Research, SIAI >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, >> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance >> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give >> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch >> manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die >> gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC > Director of Research, SIAI > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher > a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, > build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, > cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, > program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. > Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein > > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. 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