Ben,
It would seem to me that a lot of the ideas in OpenCogPrime could be implemented in neuromorphic hardware, particularly if you were to intermix it with some traditional computing hardware. This is particularly true if such a system could efficiently use neural assemblies, because that would appear to allow it to much more flexibly allocate representational resources in given amount of neuromophic hardware. (This is one of he reasons I have asked so many questions about neural assemblies on this list.) So if the researcher on this project have been learning some of your ideas, and some of the better speculative thinking and neural simulations that have been done in brains science --- either directly or indirectly --- it might be incorrect to say that "there is no 'design for a thinking machine' in SyNAPSE. But perhaps you know the thinking of the researchers involved enough to know that they do, in fact, lack such a design, other than what they have yet to learn by progress yet to be made by their neural simulations. (It should be noted that neuromophic hardware might be able to greatly reduce the cost of, and speed up, many types of neural simulations, increasing the rate at which they may be able to make progress with such an approach.) ANYWAY, I THINK WE SHOULD, AT LEAST, INVITE THEM TO AGI 2009. I though one of the goal of AGI 2009 it to increase the attention and respect our movement receives from the AI community in general and AI funders in particular. Ed Porter -----Original Message----- From: Ben Goertzel [mailto:b...@goertzel.org] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:17 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] SyNAPSE might not be a joke ---- was ---- Building a machine that can learn from experience I know Dharmendra Mohdha a bit, and I've corresponded with Eugene Izhikevich who is Edelman's collaborator on large-scale brain simulations. I've read Tononi's stuff too. I think these are all smart people with deep understandings, and all in all this will be research money well spent. However, there is no "design for a thinking machine" here. There is cool work on computer simulations of small portions of the brain. I find nothing to disrespect in the scientific work involved in this DARPA project. It may not be the absolute most valuable research path, but it's a good one. However, IMO the rhetoric associating it with "thinking machine building" is premature and borderline dishonest. It's marketing rhetoric. It's more like "interesting brain simulation research that could eventually play a role in some future thinking-machine-building project, whose nature remains largely unspecified." Getting into the nitty-gritty a little more: until we understand way, way more about how brain dynamics and structures lead to thoughts, and/or have way, way better brain imaging data, we're not going to be able to build a thinking machine via brain simulation. -- Ben G On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Ed Porter <ewpor...@msn.com> wrote: I don't think this AGI list should be so quick to dismiss a $4.9 million dollar grant to create an AGI. It will not necessarily be "vaporware." I think we should view it as a good sign. Even if it is for a project that runs the risk, like many DARPA projects (like most scientific funding in general) of not necessarily placing its money where it might do the most good --- it is likely to at least produce some interesting results --- and it just might make some very important advances in our field. The article from http://www.physorg.com/news148754667.html said: ".a $4.9 million grant.for the first phase of DARPA's Systems of Neuromorphic Adaptive Plastic Scalable Electronics (SyNAPSE) project. Tononi and scientists from Columbia University and IBM will work on the "software" for the thinking computer, while nanotechnology and supercomputing experts from Cornell, Stanford and the University of California-Merced will create the "hardware." Dharmendra Modha of IBM is the principal investigator. The idea is to create a computer capable of sorting through multiple streams of changing data, to look for patterns and make logical decisions. There's another requirement: The finished cognitive computer should be as small as a the brain of a small mammal and use as little power as a 100-watt light bulb. It's a major challenge. But it's what our brains do every day. I have just spent several hours reading a Tononi paper, "An information integration theory of consciousness" and skimmed several parts of his book "A Universe of Consciousness" he wrote with Edleman, whom Ben has referred to often in his writings. (I have attached my mark up of the article, which if you read just the yellow highlighted text, or (for more detail) the red, you can get a quick understanding of. You can also view it in MSWord outline mode if you like.) This paper largely agrees with my notion, stated multiple times on this list, that consciousness is an incredibly complex computation that interacts with itself in a very rich manner that makes it aware of itself. However, it is not clear to me --- from reading this paper or one full chapter of "A Universe of Consciousness" on Google Books and spending about fifteen minutes skimming the rest of it --- that either he or Edelman have anything approaching Novamente or OpenCog's detail description of how to build an AGI. I did not hear enough discussion of the role of grounding, and the need for proper selection in the spreading activation of a representational net so that the consciousness would be one of awareness of appropriate meaning. But Tononi is going to work with Dharmendra Modha of IBM, who is a leader in brain simulation, so they may well produce something interesting. I personally think it would be more productive to spend the money with a more Novamente-like approach, where we already seem to have good ideas for how to solve most of the hard problems (other than staying within a computational budget, and parameter tuning) --- but whatever it discovers should, at least, be relevant. Furthermore, what little I have read about the hardware side of this project is very exciting, since it provides a much more brain like platform, which if it could be made to work using Memsistors, or grapheme based technology, could enable artificial brains to be made for amazingly low prices, with energy costs 1/1000 to 1/30,000 that of CMOS machines with similar computational power. Its goal is to develop a technology that will enable AGIs to be built small enough that we could carry them around like an iPhone (albeit with large batteries, at least for a decade or so). In any case, I think we should invite people like Edelman, Tononi, and Dharmendra Modha to AGI 2009. The more we act interested and respectful of them, the more likely we are to get respect back from them and from their funders. Ed Porter -----Original Message----- From: YKY (Yan King Yin) [mailto:generic.intellige...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 12:31 AM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] Building a machine that can learn from experience > DARPA buys G.Tononi for 4.9 $Million! .... For what amounts to little more > than vague hopes that any of us here could have dreamed up. Here I am, up to > my armpits in an actual working proposition with a real science basis... > scrounging for pennies. hmmm...maybe if I sidle up and adopt an aging Nobel > prizewinner...maybe that'll do it. > > nah. too cynical for the festive season. There's always 2009! You never > know.... You talked about building your 'chips'. Just curious what are you working on? Is it hardware-related? YKY ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/? <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> & Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com _____ agi | <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Modify Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org "I intend to live forever, or die trying." -- Groucho Marx _____ agi | <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; 5> Modify Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=123753653-47f84b Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
