Sure I can agree auctions are not a good way to transfer IPs. Why are leasing an issues?
Any time a downstream client gets IP addresses from an upstream provider, they are leasing the IPs. While it isn’t usually a line item cost, the prices for the IPs are based into the cost of the bandwidth. Therefore, IP leasing has always been apart of the industry From: Mike Burns <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:52 AM To: Vivek Nigam <[email protected]>, Gaurav Kansal <[email protected]>, Karl Kloppenborg <[email protected]> Cc: Raquel Wellington <[email protected]>, mailman_apnic-transfers <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease Hi Vivek, Thanks for your reply and for the clarification on the final / 8 which we know has special characteristics. Otherwise nothing you've written prevents leasing. All you've said is that certain Support Services which may be useful for leasing will not be provided. So to be clear leasing is not mentioned nor prohibited in APNIC policy anywhere nor in the registration services agreement. In actuality members who no longer need their addresses have the option to transfer them or to return them or lease them out. To be clear, are you saying that APNIC will not allow a member to generate an ROA with an ASN not belonging to that member? As to whois registration, I'm pretty sure members can do assignments to their clients with or without a circuit. Can you be more clear on what services will be denied to those who attempt to lease out their addresses? Regards Mike Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Vivek Nigam <[email protected]> Date: 6/8/22 7:13 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Gaurav Kansal <[email protected]>, Karl Kloppenborg <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected], mailman_apnic-transfers <[email protected]> Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease Hi Mike and all, APNIC delegates IP addresses to Members based on their demonstrated need. What Members can do with that address space once it is no longer needed is impacted by policy requirements. I will provide two examples. Example 1: Addresses delegated from the last /8 pool cannot be transferred for a minimum of five years. During that time, if the reason for the original request is no longer valid, the resources must be returned to APNIC. https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#8.0.-IPv4-Transfers https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#4.0.-Resource-License So in this instance, if a Member leases out their IP addresses within five years of receiving the delegation from APNIC, they are clearly not needed for their original declared purpose and must be returned to APNIC. Example 2: For addresses delegated to a Member more than five years ago, if a Member no longer has the need for the address space, APNIC policy says the Member can choose to transfer it to another organization or return it to APNIC. APNIC policy does not have provisions for leasing. So in the second example, APNIC Members leasing addresses would be doing so outside the policy framework and will not receive APNIC services such as whois registration and RPKI/ROA access related to those addresses. This in turn may make it difficult to freely utilise those addresses on the Internet, due to lack of clear authorisation and a reliance on the registered holder (lessor) to assist. Of course, if the addresses being leased were not delegated by APNIC, then the relevant RIR’s policies apply to those addresses. If the community wishes to change APNIC address policy to either include or clarify provisions for leasing, proposals can be submitted to the Policy SIG for community discussion. Thanks Vivek From: Gaurav Kansal <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, 8 June 2022 at 1:26 pm To: Karl Kloppenborg <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>, Vivek Nigam <[email protected]>, mailman_apnic-transfers <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease Hi Karl, Totally agrees on your words. At least APNIC should not promote IPv4 auctions, leases and all other dirty stuff. Why can’t we have a policy in APNIC to not to allow IPV4 auctions/leases and only allow transfers after proper scrutiny. But money can do anything and i am doubtful whether apnic will even agrees on our points. Thanks Gaurav Kansal On 08-Jun-2022, at 08:50, [email protected] wrote: The fact of the matter is, why are leases and auctions even a thing? If you don’t need the resource anymore, doing the right thing and handing it back allows companies like myself to be able to continue operating and pushes further the move to IPv6. We simply don’t have the funds to participate in auctions and frankly, we shouldn’t have too. It is a failure of NIC’ registrars around the world that they’ve forgone the push to IPv6 and instead made a pay-to-play, everyone for themselves environment where only the wealthy and large carriers can play. The fact that companies like IPv4-Auctions, IPv4-Vault, IPTrading, etc even exist underscore just how disgusting this system has become. APNIC and all the other registrars should be ashamed of themselves. Kind Regards, Karl Kloppenborg. From: Raquel Wellington <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, 8 June 2022 at 5:37 am To: Mike Burns <[email protected]>, 'Vivek Nigam' <[email protected]>, 'mailman_apnic-transfers' <[email protected]> Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease Thank you Mike and Vivek for the points made. Vivek – why is there such a concern with a lease conversation? Some members are unable to perform a transfer due to lack of budgets, so lease might be their only option… Is there a mailing list where we can post about lease? And does the transfer mailing list allow post about selling IPs, since that is directly related to a transfer? From: Mike Burns <[email protected]> Date: Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:48 AM To: 'Vivek Nigam' <[email protected]>, Raquel Wellington <[email protected]>, 'mailman_apnic-transfers' <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease Hi Vivek, There is such a thing as a lease-to-own transfer, which ends up as a transfer. And there are those who might be considering transfer versus lease, and that definitely comports with the Charter for this list, which requires “topics relevant to IPv4 transfers”. Everything you wrote below is true and factual but deftly elides the meaningful point, which is that leasing is not prohibited at APNIC. (Although leased-out addresses would not count towards justifying a new purchase.) If I am wrong, please let us know by telling us what law, policy or contract term with APNIC would be violated by an APNIC resource holder leasing blocks to non-connected customers. And would that subject them to revocation risk? Thanks and regards, Mike Burns IPTrading.com From: Vivek Nigam <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2022 9:34 PM To: Raquel Wellington <[email protected]>; mailman_apnic-transfers <[email protected]> Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease Hi Raquel, APNIC policy does not have any provisions for leasing of IP addresses on their own. There was a policy proposal for temporary transfer prop-119 but it did not reach consensus and was withdrawn by the author. https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/proposals/prop-119<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apnic.net%2Fcommunity%2Fpolicy%2Fproposals%2Fprop-119&data=05%7C01%7Craquel.w%40ipv4-vault.com%7C904fc362349f412d321e08da496ef74f%7Cfa870da71cfb45caa9e9748210ded801%7C0%7C0%7C637903039387869457%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NtVFpafYW8cJmpNssr3yvd6KfuuTJlMKigP93MrplTU%3D&reserved=0> APNIC Members can delegate address space to their downstream customers, which are operating networks. Such delegations are non-portable and must be returned to the Member if the downstream customer ceases to receive connectivity from the Member. We have a transfer policy which allows the transfer of unused IPv4 address between APNIC Members as well as other RIR members. For more information, see https://www.apnic.net/transfer<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apnic.net%2Ftransfer&data=05%7C01%7Craquel.w%40ipv4-vault.com%7C904fc362349f412d321e08da496ef74f%7Cfa870da71cfb45caa9e9748210ded801%7C0%7C0%7C637903039387869457%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aEIlRnbEGCQSOvtDfJ7QwCX3VncVPafsiB%2B66iVKvAM%3D&reserved=0> Please note the IPv4 transfers mailing list is only for the discussion of transfers, not leasing. APNIC Transfers Charter: The APNIC Transfer mailing list was created to provide a forum enabling the sources and recipients of IPv4 address transfers, as well as IPv4 brokers, to discuss topics relevant to IPv4 transfers. Hope this information helps. Regards, Vivek From: Raquel Wellington <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Date: Saturday, 4 June 2022 at 8:49 am To: mailman_apnic-transfers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [apnic-transfers] /16 Lease Hello all, We have a clean /16 available for lease…. Please let us know if you have any interest 😊 IPv4 Vault LLC Raquel Wellington Asset Recovery Specialist +1 (424) 258-4758 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _______________________________________________ apnic-transfers - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] [https://email.gov.in/videos/images/75.jpg]<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famritmahotsav.nic.in%2F&data=05%7C01%7Craquel.w%40ipv4-vault.com%7C904fc362349f412d321e08da496ef74f%7Cfa870da71cfb45caa9e9748210ded801%7C0%7C0%7C637903039387869457%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HhuiBZNqZOzBuVo5QC26RcNTPTpqkVqCBBq9U40PQMg%3D&reserved=0>
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