Please remove me from this list On Jun 8, 2022, 1:16 PM -0400, Raquel Wellington <[email protected]>, wrote: > Sure I can agree auctions are not a good way to transfer IPs. > > Why are leasing an issues? > > Any time a downstream client gets IP addresses from an upstream provider, > they are leasing the IPs. > > While it isn’t usually a line item cost, the prices for the IPs are based > into the cost of the bandwidth. Therefore, IP leasing has always been apart > of the industry > > From: Mike Burns <[email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:52 AM > To: Vivek Nigam <[email protected]>, Gaurav Kansal <[email protected]>, Karl > Kloppenborg <[email protected]> > Cc: Raquel Wellington <[email protected]>, mailman_apnic-transfers > <[email protected]> > Subject: RE: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease > Hi Vivek, > > Thanks for your reply and for the clarification on the final / 8 which we > know has special characteristics. Otherwise nothing you've written prevents > leasing. All you've said is that certain Support Services which may be useful > for leasing will not be provided. > > So to be clear leasing is not mentioned nor prohibited in APNIC policy > anywhere nor in the registration services agreement. > > In actuality members who no longer need their addresses have the option to > transfer them or to return them or lease them out. > > To be clear, are you saying that APNIC will not allow a member to generate an > ROA with an ASN not belonging to that member? > > As to whois registration, I'm pretty sure members can do assignments to their > clients with or without a circuit. > > Can you be more clear on what services will be denied to those who attempt to > lease out their addresses? > > Regards > Mike > > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Vivek Nigam <[email protected]> > Date: 6/8/22 7:13 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: Gaurav Kansal <[email protected]>, Karl Kloppenborg > <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected], mailman_apnic-transfers > <[email protected]> > Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease > > Hi Mike and all, > APNIC delegates IP addresses to Members based on their demonstrated need. > What Members can do with that address space once it is no longer needed is > impacted by policy requirements. I will provide two examples. > Example 1: Addresses delegated from the last /8 pool cannot be transferred > for a minimum of five years. During that time, if the reason for the original > request is no longer valid, the resources must be returned to APNIC. > https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#8.0.-IPv4-Transfers > https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#4.0.-Resource-License > So in this instance, if a Member leases out their IP addresses within five > years of receiving the delegation from APNIC, they are clearly not needed for > their original declared purpose and must be returned to APNIC. > Example 2: For addresses delegated to a Member more than five years ago, if a > Member no longer has the need for the address space, APNIC policy says the > Member can choose to transfer it to another organization or return it to > APNIC. APNIC policy does not have provisions for leasing. So in the second > example, APNIC Members leasing addresses would be doing so outside the policy > framework and will not receive APNIC services such as whois registration and > RPKI/ROA access related to those addresses. This in turn may make it > difficult to freely utilise those addresses on the Internet, due to lack of > clear authorisation and a reliance on the registered holder (lessor) to > assist. > Of course, if the addresses being leased were not delegated by APNIC, then > the relevant RIR’s policies apply to those addresses. > > If the community wishes to change APNIC address policy to either include or > clarify provisions for leasing, proposals can be submitted to the Policy SIG > for community discussion. > Thanks > Vivek > > From: Gaurav Kansal <[email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, 8 June 2022 at 1:26 pm > To: Karl Kloppenborg <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>, Vivek Nigam > <[email protected]>, mailman_apnic-transfers <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease > Hi Karl, > > Totally agrees on your words. > At least APNIC should not promote IPv4 auctions, leases and all other dirty > stuff. > > Why can’t we have a policy in APNIC to not to allow IPV4 auctions/leases and > only allow transfers after proper scrutiny. > > But money can do anything and i am doubtful whether apnic will even agrees on > our points. > > Thanks > Gaurav Kansal > > > On 08-Jun-2022, at 08:50, [email protected] wrote: > > The fact of the matter is, why are leases and auctions even a thing? > > > > If you don’t need the resource anymore, doing the right thing and handing > > it back allows companies like myself to be able to continue operating and > > pushes further the move to IPv6. > > > > We simply don’t have the funds to participate in auctions and frankly, we > > shouldn’t have too. > > > > It is a failure of NIC’ registrars around the world that they’ve forgone > > the push to IPv6 and instead made a pay-to-play, everyone for themselves > > environment where only the wealthy and large carriers can play. > > > > The fact that companies like IPv4-Auctions, IPv4-Vault, IPTrading, etc even > > exist underscore just how disgusting this system has become. > > > > APNIC and all the other registrars should be ashamed of themselves. > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > Karl Kloppenborg. > > > > From: Raquel Wellington <[email protected]> > > Date: Wednesday, 8 June 2022 at 5:37 am > > To: Mike Burns <[email protected]>, 'Vivek Nigam' <[email protected]>, > > 'mailman_apnic-transfers' <[email protected]> > > Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease > > Thank you Mike and Vivek for the points made. > > > > Vivek – why is there such a concern with a lease conversation? Some > > members are unable to perform a transfer due to lack of budgets, so lease > > might be their only option… > > > > Is there a mailing list where we can post about lease? > > > > And does the transfer mailing list allow post about selling IPs, since that > > is directly related to a transfer? > > > > From: Mike Burns <[email protected]> > > Date: Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:48 AM > > To: 'Vivek Nigam' <[email protected]>, Raquel Wellington > > <[email protected]>, 'mailman_apnic-transfers' > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: RE: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease > > Hi Vivek, > > > > There is such a thing as a lease-to-own transfer, which ends up as a > > transfer. And there are those who might be considering transfer versus > > lease, and that definitely comports with the Charter for this list, which > > requires “topics relevant to IPv4 transfers”. > > > > Everything you wrote below is true and factual but deftly elides the > > meaningful point, which is that leasing is not prohibited at APNIC. > > (Although leased-out addresses would not count towards justifying a new > > purchase.) > > > > If I am wrong, please let us know by telling us what law, policy or > > contract term with APNIC would be violated by an APNIC resource holder > > leasing blocks to non-connected customers. And would that subject them to > > revocation risk? > > > > Thanks and regards, > > > > Mike Burns > > IPTrading.com > > > > > > From: Vivek Nigam <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2022 9:34 PM > > To: Raquel Wellington <[email protected]>; mailman_apnic-transfers > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease > > > > Hi Raquel, > > > > APNIC policy does not have any provisions for leasing of IP addresses on > > their own. There was a policy proposal for temporary transfer prop-119 but > > it did not reach consensus and was withdrawn by the author. > > > > https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/proposals/prop-119 > > > > APNIC Members can delegate address space to their downstream customers, > > which are operating networks. Such delegations are non-portable and must be > > returned to the Member if the downstream customer ceases to receive > > connectivity from the Member. > > > > We have a transfer policy which allows the transfer of unused IPv4 address > > between APNIC Members as well as other RIR members. For more information, > > see > > > > https://www.apnic.net/transfer > > > > Please note the IPv4 transfers mailing list is only for the discussion of > > transfers, not leasing. > > > > APNIC Transfers Charter: > > The APNIC Transfer mailing list was created to provide a forum enabling the > > sources and recipients of IPv4 address transfers, as well as IPv4 brokers, > > to discuss topics relevant to IPv4 transfers. > > > > Hope this information helps. > > > > Regards, > > Vivek > > > > From: Raquel Wellington <[email protected]> > > Date: Saturday, 4 June 2022 at 8:49 am > > To: mailman_apnic-transfers <[email protected]> > > Subject: [apnic-transfers] /16 Lease > > Hello all, > > > > We have a clean /16 available for lease…. > > > > Please let us know if you have any interest 😊 > > > > IPv4 Vault LLC > > Raquel Wellington > > Asset Recovery Specialist > > +1 (424) 258-4758 > > [email protected] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > apnic-transfers - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ > > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > > > _______________________________________________ > apnic-transfers - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
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