I agree with Samisa - u need to look carefully at what "slick" means.
Auto source -> visual mapping in an optimal way is an impossible problem to solve. If the visual tool is fantastic, a LOT of users will only use that and never look at source. So what you need to do is have a source -> visual mapping but MUCH MORE importantly, have a way to serialize a hand positioned beautiful layout so it comes back the same way. That is easy - either augment the file with machine processable comments or have a side file and use checksums or something to make sure its still good. The best visual editor I've used is one I used in 1990 or so - and its still FANTASTIC. Go see National Instruments LabView. Yes it was an *amazing* visual editor even back in 1990. These are the same guys who built the visual composer for Lego Mindstorms. This problem can be solved. We've not even scratched the surface yet. Stop talking about x/y restriction and look at what ways to do it properly .. those are simple little things. The main problem is not restricting user activity - but simply being dumb and forgetting the user activity! Second is getting the finish right - the arrow changing direction is one of many examples. Sanjiva. On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 5:19 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 8:11 PM, Viraj Rajaguru <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I think one of the main reasons for loosing the slickness of ESB >> graphical editor is we haven't restricted the user activities >> appropriately. While comparing with other graphical tools, ESB graphical >> editor is giving unnecessary freedom to user to design his diagrams. >> >> For an example if user is implementing inSequence of the proxy service, >> editor should not give user to move the elements along the 'Y' axis. >> Otherwise user will endup with an inSequence which has set of mediators >> with different Y values (coordinates) which gives a non professional look. >> > > But is that the biggest problem? Please re-read Sanjiva's original mail. > What about the direction of the arrows? That has nothing to do with Y axis, > does it? > > Also, if you restrict Y axis, how a user is supposed to drag a mediator > from in-flow to out and vise-verse? are we getting rid of that use case? > > And, in my experiance, when the screen real state is small, you need the Y > axis capability, when you have several mediators, as they cannot fit all > into one screen on one flow. Will that not be problematic? > >> >> And also with this unnecessary freedom, distances between elements >> (interms of X, Y coordinates) in the diagram are different, and indirectly >> leads to a messed diagram. >> >> For an immediate solution we can try to restrict user activities to some >> extend and check the improvements in slickness aspects with these >> restrictions. >> >> And also we will compare ESB graphical editor with other graphical >> editors and will prepare a list of reasons why ESB graphical editor has >> been deviated from other smooth graphical editors. >> >> >> Thanks, >> Viraj. >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:49 PM, Samisa Abeysinghe <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> This popped up in the other thread on stability. >>> >>> What we need to do is to come up with a list of things that we can do to >>> immediately address some of the known issues that are simple to fix. >>> >>> Tooling team, can you have a look and respond to this thread ASAP? >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Samisa Abeysinghe <[email protected]> >>> Date: Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Architecture] Stabilizing ESB Graphical Editor >>> To: architecture <[email protected]> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana >>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> Samisa beyond bugs there's simple "it doesn't look professional" stuff. >>>> For example the arrow heads turn the wrong way when the line's close etc.. >>>> We need to simple do MUCH better in the visual feel of the thing. It does >>>> not have the "slick" feel of a picture you see on creately.com right >>>> now and we need that. >>>> >>> >>> Yes I agree. The "does not look professional" are bugs too, and they >>> affect usability. >>> >>> So there are two problems. The bugs that Kasun and the rest of the team >>> are reporting are absolute blockers, as they prevent the tool being used in >>> a practical use case. Since we want this tool to be used for all use cases, >>> we will go ahead and fix those edge cases anyway. >>> >>> And at the same time, we will make a separate effort on the professional >>> aspect. Even in the hackathon, we can pay attention to these stuff. >>> But they need a different eye, to capture, than the bugs. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Can the tooling team come fix those up themselves? All it takes is to >>>> look at others (including Mule Studio) and ask yourselves honestly whether >>>> its in the same league for visual slickness. >>>> >>> >>> Yes this is possible. We will look into this. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> The issues of whether the modeling is useful and working is another >>>> aspect - and that certainly requires ESB team help. >>>> >>>> Sanjiva. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> What are the dates for the hackathon? And who will participate form >>>>> DevS side and who from ESB side? Who else? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 4:28 AM, Jasintha Dasanayake < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> +1 for the hackathon >>>>>> >>>>>> /Jasintha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:20 AM, Viraj Rajaguru <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Samisa Abeysinghe >>>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, if we already know the issues, may be it would be a good idea >>>>>>>> to do a hackathon with ESB + DesvS teams so that we can fix the >>>>>>>> pressing >>>>>>>> issues fast track and do a patch release sooner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Then, we can visit these use cases. >>>>>>>> Shall we try 2 days of Hakacthon? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 for the hackathon with ESB + DevS teams. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Viraj. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Viraj Rajaguru >>>>>>> Software Engineer >>>>>>> WSO2 Inc. : http://wso2.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mobile: +94 77 3683068 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> *Jasintha Dasanayake >>>>>> ** >>>>>> Software Engineer >>>>>> WSO2 Inc. | http://wso2.com >>>>>> lean . enterprise . middleware >>>>>> * >>>>>> * >>>>>> * >>>>>> *mobile :- 077 291 6596* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Samisa... >>>>> >>>>> Samisa Abeysinghe >>>>> VP Engineering >>>>> WSO2 Inc. >>>>> http://wso2.com >>>>> http://wso2.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. >>>> Founder, Chairman & CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com/ >>>> email: [email protected]; phone: +94 11 763 9614; cell: +94 77 787 6880| +1 >>>> 650 265 8311 >>>> blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ >>>> >>>> Lean . Enterprise . Middleware >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Architecture mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Samisa... >>> >>> Samisa Abeysinghe >>> VP Engineering >>> WSO2 Inc. >>> http://wso2.com >>> http://wso2.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Samisa... >>> >>> Samisa Abeysinghe >>> VP Engineering >>> WSO2 Inc. >>> http://wso2.com >>> http://wso2.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Viraj Rajaguru >> Software Engineer >> WSO2 Inc. : http://wso2.com >> >> Mobile: +94 77 3683068 >> >> >> >> > > > -- > > Thanks, > Samisa... > > Samisa Abeysinghe > VP Engineering > WSO2 Inc. > http://wso2.com > http://wso2.org > -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder, Chairman & CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com/ email: [email protected]; phone: +94 11 763 9614; cell: +94 77 787 6880 | +1 650 265 8311 blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ Lean . Enterprise . Middleware
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