Lets invest some time using some tools to learn what slick means to start with.
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Sanjiva Weerawarana <[email protected]>wrote: > I agree with Samisa - u need to look carefully at what "slick" means. > > Auto source -> visual mapping in an optimal way is an impossible problem > to solve. If the visual tool is fantastic, a LOT of users will only use > that and never look at source. So what you need to do is have a source -> > visual mapping but MUCH MORE importantly, have a way to serialize a hand > positioned beautiful layout so it comes back the same way. That is easy - > either augment the file with machine processable comments or have a side > file and use checksums or something to make sure its still good. > > The best visual editor I've used is one I used in 1990 or so - and its > still FANTASTIC. Go see National Instruments LabView. Yes it was an > *amazing* visual editor even back in 1990. These are the same guys who > built the visual composer for Lego Mindstorms. > > This problem can be solved. We've not even scratched the surface yet. Stop > talking about x/y restriction and look at what ways to do it properly .. > those are simple little things. The main problem is not restricting user > activity - but simply being dumb and forgetting the user activity! Second > is getting the finish right - the arrow changing direction is one of many > examples. > > Sanjiva. > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 5:19 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe <[email protected]>wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 8:11 PM, Viraj Rajaguru <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I think one of the main reasons for loosing the slickness of ESB >>> graphical editor is we haven't restricted the user activities >>> appropriately. While comparing with other graphical tools, ESB graphical >>> editor is giving unnecessary freedom to user to design his diagrams. >>> >>> For an example if user is implementing inSequence of the proxy service, >>> editor should not give user to move the elements along the 'Y' axis. >>> Otherwise user will endup with an inSequence which has set of mediators >>> with different Y values (coordinates) which gives a non professional look. >>> >> >> But is that the biggest problem? Please re-read Sanjiva's original mail. >> What about the direction of the arrows? That has nothing to do with Y axis, >> does it? >> >> Also, if you restrict Y axis, how a user is supposed to drag a mediator >> from in-flow to out and vise-verse? are we getting rid of that use case? >> >> And, in my experiance, when the screen real state is small, you need the >> Y axis capability, when you have several mediators, as they cannot fit all >> into one screen on one flow. Will that not be problematic? >> >>> >>> And also with this unnecessary freedom, distances between elements >>> (interms of X, Y coordinates) in the diagram are different, and indirectly >>> leads to a messed diagram. >>> >>> For an immediate solution we can try to restrict user activities to some >>> extend and check the improvements in slickness aspects with these >>> restrictions. >>> >>> And also we will compare ESB graphical editor with other graphical >>> editors and will prepare a list of reasons why ESB graphical editor has >>> been deviated from other smooth graphical editors. >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Viraj. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:49 PM, Samisa Abeysinghe <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> This popped up in the other thread on stability. >>>> >>>> What we need to do is to come up with a list of things that we can do >>>> to immediately address some of the known issues that are simple to fix. >>>> >>>> Tooling team, can you have a look and respond to this thread ASAP? >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: Samisa Abeysinghe <[email protected]> >>>> Date: Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:29 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Architecture] Stabilizing ESB Graphical Editor >>>> To: architecture <[email protected]> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana >>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Samisa beyond bugs there's simple "it doesn't look professional" >>>>> stuff. For example the arrow heads turn the wrong way when the line's >>>>> close >>>>> etc.. We need to simple do MUCH better in the visual feel of the thing. It >>>>> does not have the "slick" feel of a picture you see on creately.comright >>>>> now and we need that. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Yes I agree. The "does not look professional" are bugs too, and they >>>> affect usability. >>>> >>>> So there are two problems. The bugs that Kasun and the rest of the team >>>> are reporting are absolute blockers, as they prevent the tool being used in >>>> a practical use case. Since we want this tool to be used for all use cases, >>>> we will go ahead and fix those edge cases anyway. >>>> >>>> And at the same time, we will make a separate effort on the >>>> professional aspect. Even in the hackathon, we can pay attention to these >>>> stuff. >>>> But they need a different eye, to capture, than the bugs. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Can the tooling team come fix those up themselves? All it takes is to >>>>> look at others (including Mule Studio) and ask yourselves honestly whether >>>>> its in the same league for visual slickness. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Yes this is possible. We will look into this. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> The issues of whether the modeling is useful and working is another >>>>> aspect - and that certainly requires ESB team help. >>>>> >>>>> Sanjiva. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Samisa Abeysinghe <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> What are the dates for the hackathon? And who will participate form >>>>>> DevS side and who from ESB side? Who else? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 4:28 AM, Jasintha Dasanayake < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 for the hackathon >>>>>>> >>>>>>> /Jasintha >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:20 AM, Viraj Rajaguru <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Samisa Abeysinghe <[email protected] >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now, if we already know the issues, may be it would be a good idea >>>>>>>>> to do a hackathon with ESB + DesvS teams so that we can fix the >>>>>>>>> pressing >>>>>>>>> issues fast track and do a patch release sooner. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Then, we can visit these use cases. >>>>>>>>> Shall we try 2 days of Hakacthon? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> +1 for the hackathon with ESB + DevS teams. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Viraj. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Viraj Rajaguru >>>>>>>> Software Engineer >>>>>>>> WSO2 Inc. : http://wso2.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mobile: +94 77 3683068 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> *Jasintha Dasanayake >>>>>>> ** >>>>>>> Software Engineer >>>>>>> WSO2 Inc. | http://wso2.com >>>>>>> lean . enterprise . middleware >>>>>>> * >>>>>>> * >>>>>>> * >>>>>>> *mobile :- 077 291 6596* >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Samisa... >>>>>> >>>>>> Samisa Abeysinghe >>>>>> VP Engineering >>>>>> WSO2 Inc. >>>>>> http://wso2.com >>>>>> http://wso2.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. >>>>> Founder, Chairman & CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com/ >>>>> email: [email protected]; phone: +94 11 763 9614; cell: +94 77 787 6880| +1 >>>>> 650 265 8311 >>>>> blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ >>>>> >>>>> Lean . Enterprise . Middleware >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Samisa... >>>> >>>> Samisa Abeysinghe >>>> VP Engineering >>>> WSO2 Inc. >>>> http://wso2.com >>>> http://wso2.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Samisa... >>>> >>>> Samisa Abeysinghe >>>> VP Engineering >>>> WSO2 Inc. >>>> http://wso2.com >>>> http://wso2.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Viraj Rajaguru >>> Software Engineer >>> WSO2 Inc. : http://wso2.com >>> >>> Mobile: +94 77 3683068 >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Thanks, >> Samisa... >> >> Samisa Abeysinghe >> VP Engineering >> WSO2 Inc. >> http://wso2.com >> http://wso2.org >> > > > > -- > Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. > Founder, Chairman & CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com/ > email: [email protected]; phone: +94 11 763 9614; cell: +94 77 787 6880 | > +1 650 265 8311 > blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/ > > Lean . Enterprise . Middleware > -- Thanks, Samisa... Samisa Abeysinghe VP Engineering WSO2 Inc. http://wso2.com http://wso2.org
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