I don't know if TASTY <https://github.com/VladimirNik/tasty> might be of 
help, either in ideas or actual implementation. Some more indepth 
discussion of TAST: https://github.com/twitter/reasonable-scala/issues/21

On Saturday, March 10, 2018 at 10:00:31 AM UTC-5, gmhwxi wrote:
> Thanks.
> These are all very good points.
> I said many times here that I see ATS as both a source language and
> a target language. ATS3 will make it a lot easier for people to use it as a
> target language. I will first use a master design for the syntax of ATS3 
> largely based
> on that of ATS2. And an interesting party can design his or her syntax 
> that translates
> into this master design. Stay tuned :)
> On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 9:11 AM, Brandon Barker <brandon...@gmail.com 
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>> While jumping back into ATS, a few other minor things (lots of minor 
>> things add up) that might be nicer is string interpolation in the form of 
>> python 3.6 or Scala (both are very similar). Here's a copy paste example 
>> from python 3.6:
>> 1. 
>> name = "Spongebob Squarepants"print(f"Who lives in a Pineapple under the 
>> sea? {name}.")
>> Scala would look like:
>> print(s"Who lives in a Pineapple under the sea? $name.")
>> or if 'name' was a general scala expression instead of just an identifier:
>> print(s"Who lives in a Pineapple under the sea? ${name}.")
>> This could also be useful for supporting things like XML interpolation, 
>> etc, later on (not that it is a very high priority for most, I imagine ;-)).
>> I don't know how this might work in ATS yet, since scala relies on 
>> objects' toString methods, and Python objects have something similar (in 
>> both languages, everything is effectively extends object, which I believe 
>> has the toString method - by default, this is just the object's address, so 
>> not too interesting, but Int of course has a sensible override, as do many 
>> objects).
>> 2. OK, maybe this isn't so minor generally. I was using extern in front 
>> of a fun in a dats file (I thought this was actually required, but 
>> eventually realized that my sleep-deprived brain had read about extern last 
>> night and forgot this was only for interfaces, not definitions). This was 
>> the error message:
>>  128(line=8, offs=38): error(parsing): [s0tring] is needed 
>> Lots of confusion here for a beginner. The user might have to figure out 
>> what s0tring is (I think it is either a non-dependent or non-linear string, 
>> can't recall and didn't check); also it implies something is needed when it 
>> is actually the absence of something that is needed in this particular case 
>> (the extern keyword).
>> 3. Simplify ways of defining functions. There seem to be many: fn, fun, 
>> fnx. I'd prefer a longer but easier to remember 'tailrec' prefix keyword in 
>> some cases to make sure the function is tail recursive and tc-eliminated. 
>> Just throwing a quick idea out there, haven't thought about this much, and 
>> i'm sure that there are good reasons for why things are the way they are in 
>> ATS (I just don't recall all of them).
>> I think if ATS3 is to be done, better error messages should be on about 
>> the same priority as improved syntax. On this point, I will say that Scala 
>> error messages seem way better generally than Python thanks to typing: you 
>> are generally looking at stacktraces in Python, which lack types as well 
>> ;-).
>> On Saturday, March 10, 2018 at 7:33:04 AM UTC-5, Brandon Barker wrote:
>>> Implicit parameters get a bit of a bad reputation, but I don't recall 
>>> ever being burned by them in any way even though I use them almost all of 
>>> the time; if you have things like implicit strings or even implicit 
>>> Map[String, something], that is obviously not good programming style, since 
>>> it is relatively easy to add a new implicit in scope (but then you'd get a 
>>> compile error anyway as you can't have more than one implicit of the same 
>>> type in scope) - they usually need to be rather specific types related to 
>>> configuration to make sense.  Granted, I have not used them much in the 
>>> contradictory fashion that I linked above from Miles Sabin - that is a 
>>> rather unusual Scala style, but he hides a lot of that in his Shapeless 
>>> library so you can use the features without being directly exposed to (most 
>>> of) the unpleasantries.
>>> I get the sense that dotty isn't adding too many "bells and whistles" 
>>> features, and even removing the ones that relate to unsoundness, and making 
>>> other features less suprising, like making the extension order no longer 
>>> matter: A extends B with C will be the same as A extends C with B now. And 
>>> they are adding sensible union types. I believe they are improving 
>>> dependent typing in dotty as well. They are removing XML literals, which 
>>> I'm actually somewhat sad about, but adding in XML string interpolation.  
>>> I've heard there is 0 chance of getting linear types though. Which is why 
>>> ATS is really in a good place in terms of features. It has a lot of nice 
>>> functional things like Scala (even better: ATS has mutual TCO), has better 
>>> linear types than Rust, and has a proof system, neither of which Rust or 
>>> Scala has. 
>>> I don't meant to overly sell Scala here; I just think it has some nice 
>>> things, and I've been using it a lot, so I wanted to list the things I 
>>> thought were nice. Why I use it: as I and some others like to say, it is a 
>>> language that gives you types like Java (but better) and concision like 
>>> python, while basically giving you the same massive and easy-to-use (once 
>>> you are used to it) JVM ecosystem that Java enjoys. So while it may not 
>>> have a lot of advanced features compared to some more modern languages, it 
>>> already seems to be quite an improvement over the most popular languages 
>>> for many applications. Also I had a lot of JVM-related projects lately ;-).
>>> On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 7:09 AM, gmhwxi <gmh...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
>>> wrote:
>>>> The way in which Scala evolves reminds me of C++: Powerful features
>>>> increase productivity but also make it harder and harder to reason about
>>>> code.
>>>> On Friday, March 9, 2018 at 3:29:18 PM UTC-5, Brandon Barker wrote:
>>>>> Another Scala feature worth looking into: implicit parameters, values, 
>>>>> and function types. Dotty has added implicit function types, and I'm not 
>>>>> very familiar with all their benefits as yet: 
>>>>> https://www.scala-lang.org/blog/2016/12/07/implicit-function-types.html
>>>>> However, implicit parameters alone have been great for me, and could 
>>>>> probably go a long way towards reducing some verbosity in ATS. They can 
>>>>> also be used in clever ways to create contradictions at compile time, by 
>>>>> bringing into scope two implicit values of the same type. I'm not sure if 
>>>>> ATS would benefit from that feature, but Scala's type system doesn't 
>>>>> allow 
>>>>> for things like type b = not a. You can achieve that with implicits: 
>>>>> https://gist.github.com/milessabin/c9f8befa932d98dcc7a4
>>>>> On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 12:01:03 PM UTC-5, Brandon Barker wrote:
>>>>>> I forgot to mention, I like the idea of adding a level of indirection 
>>>>>> in the syntax for ATS3. Hopefully this could allow something like 
>>>>>> scalafix <https://github.com/scalacenter/scalafix> to be developed, 
>>>>>> which would not only allow code migration from ATS2 to ATS3, but also 
>>>>>> ease 
>>>>>> future code migration within ATS3.
>>>>>> to be applied to existing sources
>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 11:52:49 AM UTC-5, Brandon Barker 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Glad to see this thread is here. I will just share some general 
>>>>>>> thoughts for syntax as my ATS is a bit rusty:
>>>>>>> 1. I like Scala style syntax - I think it is easy enough to read, 
>>>>>>> unless maybe you are doing stuff at the type level, where ATS seems to 
>>>>>>> have 
>>>>>>> an advantage over Scala. I think Scala is similar to python in a lot of 
>>>>>>> ways (especially with Python 3.6 typing styles), aside from making 
>>>>>>> indentation part of the syntax. My thought is that Python doing this 
>>>>>>> helps 
>>>>>>> to force people to write somewhat readable code (think beginner Python 
>>>>>>> vs 
>>>>>>> beginner Perl), but I think we can assume that if you are coding in 
>>>>>>> ATS, or 
>>>>>>> at least publishing code in ATS, you will be sensible enough to have 
>>>>>>> some 
>>>>>>> kind of good programming style. So I would vote for leaving indentation 
>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>> a style checker/linter.
>>>>>>> 2. Concision: I sadly don't know Idris or Haskell, and am very 
>>>>>>> tempted to learn one of them to get a better appreciation of them, but 
>>>>>>> I'd 
>>>>>>> rather focus on ATS again. However, I do appreciate that they are 
>>>>>>> concise, 
>>>>>>> even more so than Scala, which is generally laudable. 
>>>>>>> 3. Feature hiding: Facilitate the principle of least powe 
>>>>>>> <http://www.lihaoyi.com/post/StrategicScalaStylePrincipleofLeastPower.html>r.
>>>>>>> ATS has a lot of advanced features, as does Scala (of course ATS has 
>>>>>>> more). 
>>>>>>> Scala is pretty good at letting you hide them. I swear, I'd been coding 
>>>>>>> in 
>>>>>>> Scala for 3 years and was still amazed at how simple you could make the 
>>>>>>> code if you try - just take a look at http://www.kogics.net/kojo - 
>>>>>>> it is nearly as easy as python I would say, and preferable to me. The 
>>>>>>> lack 
>>>>>>> of types in the coding examples is almost annoying to me, but I 
>>>>>>> understand 
>>>>>>> it is beneficial to young readers. Now, I'm not saying we can do all 
>>>>>>> this 
>>>>>>> in ATS, but Scala is so named because it is a "language that scales 
>>>>>>> with 
>>>>>>> you", and I believe ATS is this too, but it would be good to make that 
>>>>>>> scaling a bit more smooth, like climbing a Olympus Mons 
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons#/media/File:Olympus_Mons_Side_View.svg>
>>>>>>> rather than K2.
>>>>>>> Other goals:
>>>>>>>  - Build systems: I think cross builds are very important as already 
>>>>>>> stated. In scala land, there is Scala (JVM), scala.js, and now 
>>>>>>> scala-native. Usually, we can create cross builds by having some source 
>>>>>>> that is platform independent (e.g. APIs/interfaces/types) and other 
>>>>>>> bits 
>>>>>>> that are platform specific and rely on the platform independent bits. 
>>>>>>> This 
>>>>>>> is great. Related to this, I actually think it may be worthwhile 
>>>>>>> looking 
>>>>>>> into an existing build tool with a larger community rather than using 
>>>>>>> make 
>>>>>>> and autotools, which seem to me a bit antiquated and unfriendly to 
>>>>>>> other 
>>>>>>> platforms. I recall Hongwei and I were both a bit jaded by our 
>>>>>>> experience 
>>>>>>> with using gradle, so I'm both excited to say Mill 
>>>>>>> <https://github.com/lihaoyi/mill> looks like a promising 
>>>>>>> alternative, though I'm also hesitant to make a suggestion after the 
>>>>>>> last 
>>>>>>> failure with Gradle :-) But I believe a lot in Mill's stated goals, 
>>>>>>> especially insofar as they overlap with CBT's 
>>>>>>> <https://github.com/cvogt/cbt> and the idea of being designed to 
>>>>>>> support multiple languages. If we can agree that Scala isn't terrible, 
>>>>>>> I 
>>>>>>> say let's not reinvent the wheel, and try to comingle a bit with them. 
>>>>>>> This 
>>>>>>> could be beneficial for both communities. Let's think about using their 
>>>>>>> build tools. At the moment, Mill seems to be creating a lot of 
>>>>>>> excitement, 
>>>>>>> so it might be worth looking into it first.
>>>>>>> I'll try to give more concrete feedback in the future.
>>>>>>> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 1:15:22 PM UTC-5, gmhwxi wrote:
>>>>>>>> For the moment, I just want to open a thread for ATS3.
>>>>>>>> I decided to pick ATS/Xanadu for the full project name. I like the 
>>>>>>>> name Xanadu
>>>>>>>> because it is poetic and brings a feel of exoticness.
>>>>>>>> ATS3 is supposed to be compiled to ATS2. At least at the beginning. 
>>>>>>>> I will try to
>>>>>>>> write more about what I have in mind regarding ATS3.
>>>>>>>> I know that a lot of people have been complaining about the syntax 
>>>>>>>> of ATS2. So
>>>>>>>> we can start the effort of designing some "nice" syntax for ATS3. 
>>>>>>>> Please feel free
>>>>>>>> to post here if you would like share your opinions and ideas.
>>>>>>>> I will be happy to take the lead but we definitely need to have 
>>>>>>>> some form of community
>>>>>>>> effort on this project given its size and scope.
>>>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>>>> --Hongwei
>>>>>>>> PS: I felt rushed every time up to now when implementing ATS. This 
>>>>>>>> time I am hoping
>>>>>>>> to have the luxury of thinking about implementation a bit before 
>>>>>>>> actually doing it :)
>>>>>>>> -- 
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>>>> .
>>> -- 
>>> Brandon Barker
>>> brandon...@gmail.com <javascript:>
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