The way in which Scala evolves reminds me of C++: Powerful features increase productivity but also make it harder and harder to reason about code.
On Friday, March 9, 2018 at 3:29:18 PM UTC-5, Brandon Barker wrote: > > Another Scala feature worth looking into: implicit parameters, values, and > function types. Dotty has added implicit function types, and I'm not very > familiar with all their benefits as yet: > https://www.scala-lang.org/blog/2016/12/07/implicit-function-types.html > However, implicit parameters alone have been great for me, and could > probably go a long way towards reducing some verbosity in ATS. They can > also be used in clever ways to create contradictions at compile time, by > bringing into scope two implicit values of the same type. I'm not sure if > ATS would benefit from that feature, but Scala's type system doesn't allow > for things like type b = not a. You can achieve that with implicits: > https://gist.github.com/milessabin/c9f8befa932d98dcc7a4 > > On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 12:01:03 PM UTC-5, Brandon Barker wrote: >> >> I forgot to mention, I like the idea of adding a level of indirection in >> the syntax for ATS3. Hopefully this could allow something like scalafix >> <https://github.com/scalacenter/scalafix> to be developed, which would >> not only allow code migration from ATS2 to ATS3, but also ease future code >> migration within ATS3. >> to be applied to existing sources >> >> On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 11:52:49 AM UTC-5, Brandon Barker wrote: >>> >>> Glad to see this thread is here. I will just share some general thoughts >>> for syntax as my ATS is a bit rusty: >>> >>> 1. I like Scala style syntax - I think it is easy enough to read, unless >>> maybe you are doing stuff at the type level, where ATS seems to have an >>> advantage over Scala. I think Scala is similar to python in a lot of ways >>> (especially with Python 3.6 typing styles), aside from making indentation >>> part of the syntax. My thought is that Python doing this helps to force >>> people to write somewhat readable code (think beginner Python vs beginner >>> Perl), but I think we can assume that if you are coding in ATS, or at least >>> publishing code in ATS, you will be sensible enough to have some kind of >>> good programming style. So I would vote for leaving indentation to a style >>> checker/linter. >>> 2. Concision: I sadly don't know Idris or Haskell, and am very tempted >>> to learn one of them to get a better appreciation of them, but I'd rather >>> focus on ATS again. However, I do appreciate that they are concise, even >>> more so than Scala, which is generally laudable. >>> 3. Feature hiding: Facilitate the principle of least powe >>> <http://www.lihaoyi.com/post/StrategicScalaStylePrincipleofLeastPower.html>r. >>> >>> ATS has a lot of advanced features, as does Scala (of course ATS has more). >>> Scala is pretty good at letting you hide them. I swear, I'd been coding in >>> Scala for 3 years and was still amazed at how simple you could make the >>> code if you try - just take a look at http://www.kogics.net/kojo - it >>> is nearly as easy as python I would say, and preferable to me. The lack of >>> types in the coding examples is almost annoying to me, but I understand it >>> is beneficial to young readers. Now, I'm not saying we can do all this in >>> ATS, but Scala is so named because it is a "language that scales with you", >>> and I believe ATS is this too, but it would be good to make that scaling a >>> bit more smooth, like climbing a Olympus Mons >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons#/media/File:Olympus_Mons_Side_View.svg> >>> >>> rather than K2. >>> >>> >>> Other goals: >>> - Build systems: I think cross builds are very important as already >>> stated. In scala land, there is Scala (JVM), scala.js, and now >>> scala-native. Usually, we can create cross builds by having some source >>> that is platform independent (e.g. APIs/interfaces/types) and other bits >>> that are platform specific and rely on the platform independent bits. This >>> is great. Related to this, I actually think it may be worthwhile looking >>> into an existing build tool with a larger community rather than using make >>> and autotools, which seem to me a bit antiquated and unfriendly to other >>> platforms. I recall Hongwei and I were both a bit jaded by our experience >>> with using gradle, so I'm both excited to say Mill >>> <https://github.com/lihaoyi/mill> looks like a promising alternative, >>> though I'm also hesitant to make a suggestion after the last failure with >>> Gradle :-) But I believe a lot in Mill's stated goals, especially insofar >>> as they overlap with CBT's <https://github.com/cvogt/cbt> and the idea >>> of being designed to support multiple languages. If we can agree that Scala >>> isn't terrible, I say let's not reinvent the wheel, and try to comingle a >>> bit with them. This could be beneficial for both communities. Let's think >>> about using their build tools. At the moment, Mill seems to be creating a >>> lot of excitement, so it might be worth looking into it first. >>> >>> I'll try to give more concrete feedback in the future. >>> >>> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 1:15:22 PM UTC-5, gmhwxi wrote: >>>> >>>> For the moment, I just want to open a thread for ATS3. >>>> >>>> I decided to pick ATS/Xanadu for the full project name. I like the name >>>> Xanadu >>>> because it is poetic and brings a feel of exoticness. >>>> >>>> ATS3 is supposed to be compiled to ATS2. At least at the beginning. I >>>> will try to >>>> write more about what I have in mind regarding ATS3. >>>> >>>> I know that a lot of people have been complaining about the syntax of >>>> ATS2. So >>>> we can start the effort of designing some "nice" syntax for ATS3. >>>> Please feel free >>>> to post here if you would like share your opinions and ideas. >>>> >>>> I will be happy to take the lead but we definitely need to have some >>>> form of community >>>> effort on this project given its size and scope. >>>> >>>> Cheers! >>>> >>>> --Hongwei >>>> >>>> PS: I felt rushed every time up to now when implementing ATS. This time >>>> I am hoping >>>> to have the luxury of thinking about implementation a bit before >>>> actually doing it :) >>>> >>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ats-lang-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ats-lang-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to ats-lang-users@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/ats-lang-users. 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