opaqueice;352725 Wrote: 
> If it takes 10s of seconds for the brain to even respond to the HFS,
> this is something that has little or nothing to do with hearing.

Yes YES now we are on the same line again! True and part of the message
from this study: we can't hear it!

> Precisely what it is I wouldn't want to speculate - but to think it has
> anything particular to do with music appreciation would be completely
> unjustified.  I'd like to see this test repeated with random test-tones
> replacing the HF component.

They do speculate with two scenario's in the "discussion" part of the
paper and fully state it's nothing more than speculations. Also:
replacing the HF component of the song with random HF test tones
(sweeps even) might indeed produce the same results. I would believe
it. I even suspect that the change in brain response is similar to
adding a good drink/smoke to the sound.

> I gave an example - perhaps HF ambient sound was absent in the testing
> room, and so HF sound was present only when they played it, and further
> perhaps that missing HF background somehow makes the subjects nervous. 
> Far-fetched?  Sure - but so are the results.

But how do you explain that when they repeat that test under the same
conditions but with short samples (same song, same HF component) the
results revert back to those from the other/older tests. The conditions
you describe were present in both tests, if present at all. Clearly,
only the sample length and interval time is different! Remember that
both were double-blind tests under professional supervision and thus
accurate.

> HF tones produce all kinds of lower frequency components when played
> over cheap computer speakers.  When I did that test some time ago it
> was easier to hear the 18kHz than the 16, and I'm certain that is not
> because of some weird anomaly in my hearing response

But the average persons hearing response isn't a nice one to start
with, I mean, it's not like some electronic band-pass filter with
smooth 3/6/9 dB cut-offs and linear response in between. Many people
have problems hearing a tone of freq x but no trouble with x + b (a
higher freq. I mean). When I listen to a constant dB level slow sweep
over the entire range, I sense it as going up and down in volume
multiple times. If the dB level goes down, parts become more difficult
to hear, I think that this is normal. Humans ears don't get the quality
control and consistency of some decent type of mics. Also, you need
better PC speakers or a scope connected to check it out;-)

> Very few people I know can hear NTSC TV screens - that goes even for
> kids.  And that's a little below 16kHz.

True, although I think some of them can hear it but don't realize it is
the sound you are talking about. But I was referring to the audiophile
members here and we are not average nor normal... we have golden or at
least silver ears!

> It's certainly not bad news.  I have no problem at all with hi-rez
> formats - if you can do it, why not do it?  And if it focuses attention
> on sound quality that's good in my book.  But I think there are many
> other areas that are far more important and could gain much more from
> this kind of attention (room effects, bass management, DSP, dynamic
> compression, etc.).

Glad to hear it, you had me a bit worried there ;-) But I am sure that
these areas you mention get lots, if not more, attention too. I have
bigger problems with the way most manufacturers of high-end audio kit
operate. An example: I think that the members of this forum cooperating
in a single thread, can come up with specs and even parts to use for a
truly all-out DAC + pre-amp that can be manufactured for a fraction of
the price of most "all-out" DAC's available now, and many still have
serious flaws included with the ridiculous price they charge for it. We
should do that and ask Sean what he thinks about (making) it!

ciao!
Nick.


-- 
DeVerm
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