Title: Message
Thanks Chris for presenting the details of the Puchacz accidents. It certainly presents a better understanding of the facts surrounding the spin accidents with the Puchacz at least in the UK.
 
In my humble view there is nothing in the report which would raise my concern in training students in the Puchacz. I believe many training gliders where spin recovery does not require the full procedure ie. combined top rudder and stick forward, only serves to allow our students to develop bad habits which can bite them later when they fly less forgiving ships.  I can well remember my own training days in the Blanik where spin recovery could be effected simply by easing off back pressure on the stick, If the instructor is not on the ball he could easily let the pupil get away with handling practices which would not sufficent for recovery in other gliders.
 
I think main message from all of this discussion is that training procedures can be inherently dangerous and that as instructors we must be vigilant with safety throughout all aspects of the training process. This must obviously include fundemental things such as correct weight and balance, no matter what gliders we are flying.
 
 
John Parncutt
VMFG
 
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Christopher H Thorpe
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 10:18 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] my last word

A better researched summary by W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.) follows:-
 
Subject : RE: Spin accidents in Puchacz
Posted : 2004-03-31 8:54 PM
 
The 23 Puchacz fatal accidents include the accident in the U.K. on 18th January.   The list of 23 is world wide and was compiled by Cindy Brickner at Caracole Soaring, Cal. City.   There have now been 6 Puchacz fatal accidents in the U.K.

The investigation into the U.K. accident on January 18th is being led by the AAIB (Air Accident Investigation Branch) of the DfT (Department for Transport) with the co-operation and involvement of the BGA (British Gliding Association).   When the investigation is complete the report will be published by the AAIB on their web-site at http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/bulletin.htm , please note that these reports are listed under the month of the report, not the month of the accident.   I have only heard conflicting rumours about this accident, I am being careful not to form an opinion until the report is published.

The previous 5 Puchacz fatal accidents in the U.K. were all investigated by the BGA (with the agreement of the AAIB).   Brief details are as follows:

U.K. FATAL ACCIDENTS TO PUCHACZ GLIDERS.

1990/08/04 114/90   South Wales G.C., Usk.

The purpose of the flight was instructor training, the club Chief Flying Instructor was preparing an Assistant Category Instructor for his Full Category Rating test.   After an aerotow, a deliberate spin was entered at 1,400-1,200ft. above the airfield.   There was no problem caused by any difficulty in recovering which was simply started too low.   A tape recorder was being carried, and this is why these facts are known, the tape stopped within three seconds of recovery being started.   The CFI in the front seat was killed.

1991/07/28 111/91   Shalbourne Soaring Society, Rivar Hill.

After a slow winch launch to about 1,000ft. the glider started to spin with the wire still attached. It was the pupil's 25th launch, so it is reasonable to suppose that the pupil was flying the launch; the pupil had not received any spin training.   After two turns to the left the rotation stopped but it immediately span to the right, there is uncertainty as to whether it had actually stopped spinning before impact.   The probable cause was considered to be "Pupil alarmed by spin entry failed to recognise spin and in a state of panic overrode the instructors attempts to push the stick forward and failed to hear any instructions to relinquish the controls."   I am quoting from an interim report which I have, there is reference to witness statements which I have not seen, I understand that before the instructor died he stated that he could not regain control of the stick, I have heard stories that this theory is supported by other evidence.

1993/08/13 132/93   Derby & Lancashire G.C., Camphill.

This was an air experience flight, the pupil's first flight.   The glider was launched to between 1,000 and 1,200 ft.   It was seen spinning at about 600 ft. at the start of the downwind leg and crashed 300 ft. below the hilltop (i.e. below the airfield height, in the valley).   The spin had stopped but there was insufficient height for recovery from the ensuing dive.   The glider crashed at a nose down angle of about 70 degrees killing both crew.   I have not seen the report but I have heard from someone who was current at that club at the time that there was evidence of a struggle in the cockpit, and that there may have been medical factors affecting the pupil (who I understand had signed a medical form without declaring any problem).   In other words it appears likely that the pupil held the stick back and the instructor could not take control until too late.

1995/05/05 82/95   Coventry G.C. (now The Soaring Centre), Husbands Bosworth.

This was an air experience flight, the pupil's first flight.   The winch launch failed when the cable broke at between 150 and 300 ft.   The pilot recovered to normal gliding attitude and then turned through 180 degrees.   After a short run downwind a further turn into wind was started.   During this turn the glider span and the pupil was killed.

2003/02/21 20/03   Derby & Lancs., Camphill.

This was a mid-air collision between the Puchacz and a winch cable being used to launch another glider.   The pupil was on his second flight, he had previous paragliding experience.   The pupil was flying the glider as directed by the instructor when the cable was hit at about 600 to 800ft.   The glider being launched back released but did not realise that anything untoward had happened.   "The instructor quickly regained control and realising that the winch cable was still attached to the left wing and that the left wing was damaged, opened the airbrakes to descend quickly and spiralled down over the airfield just north of the winch.   The instructor then straightened out from the spiral descent when about 150-200ft. above the ground and attempted to land the glider heading north, back towards the original launch point.   Quite soon after he had straightened out from the spiral descent the instructor lost control of the glider and it hit the ground in a steep nose down attitude, severely damaging the cockpit area."   That was a quote from the report which I have, it seems that the cable still attached to the wing stopped the glider in mid-air.   The pupil was killed.

2004/01/18 The Soaring Centre, Husbands Bosworth.

Two killed, AAIB ongoing field investigation.   The glider was certainly seen spinning, more than that I do not know.   I feel that speculation as to the probable cause is pointless before the report is published.

SUMMARY.

One deliberate spin, advanced instructor training, no recovery problem, recovery left too late.

Two inadvertent spins where the pupil held the stick right back and the instructor could not take control until too late.

One spin off a low winch cable break circuit, instructor flying.

One mid-air.

One spin, cause as yet unknown.

None of the accident reports suggest any problem with the stall/spin recovery characteristics of the Puchacz.

I have not heard of any stall/spin recovery problems in the U.K. with the Puchacz, such as delayed recovery.   There have of course been such reports from other countries.

THE BGA AND STALL/SPIN TRAINING.

So far as I know, there has only ever been one fatality in the U.K. from a deliberate spin, 114/90 above.

There has been much controversy relating to the BGA suggestion that some spin entries should be made at low altitude.   This idea is greeted with horror on the West side of the Atlantic, and it is controversial in the U.K. as well.   Yet so far as I know it has never killed anyone.   It may be worthwhile to consider why it is done.

HISTORY RELATING TO STALL / SPIN TRAINING.

Some years ago those investigating accidents formed the opinion that pilots who were perfectly capable of recovering from an inadvertent stall/spin at altitude were failing to recover from a departure from controlled flight at low height, in particular at heights where recovery was possible provided immediate correct action was taken.

As a consequence of this, two changes were introduced to the training of solo pilots, and to the coaching of instructors.   These were an introduction to the stall when effects of controls are first taught, and showing a stall/spin at low altitude once these had been learned in the upper air.

Full details of the current recommended methods are to be found in the BGA Instructors’ Manual (1994), Second edition (2003).

1. /   A very gentle stall is demonstrated and taught when the effect of the elevator is first taught, which is the first lesson when teaching effects of controls.   This is so that the new pilot knows right from the beginning that in some circumstances you can move the stick back and either nothing happens, or you get exactly the opposite of what you expected.

2. /   To quote from a long section in the Manual (page 19-3), ADVICE TO INSTRUCTORS:

“In the initial stages of spin training, continuous spins of two or three turns are mainly to allow the trainee time to study the characteristics of the spin and give confidence that the recovery action from a stabilised spin is effective.   There is no requirement for these spins to be noticeably close to the ground, so their training value is not compromised if they are completed very high.   The majority of spin training will then involve brief spins of about half a turn with the primary aim of recognising the circumstances in which a spin can occur, correctly identifying the spin/spiral dive, and practising the correct recovery action.

“As this training progresses, it is necessary to introduce brief spins where the ground is noticeably close.   This is to ensure that the trainee will take the correct recovery action even when the nose is down and the ground approaching.   A very experienced instructor flying a docile two seater in ideal conditions may be prepared to initiate a brief spin from 800 ft.   A less docile two seater with a less experienced instructor, or less than ideal conditions, should raise the minimum height considerably.

“THE CRUCIAL ACTION is to move the stick forward to unstall the glider EVEN though the nose is dropping or pointing steeply downward.   It is the inability of pilots to take this action when the nose drops unexpectedly which results in stalling and spinning accidents.”

FAILURE TO HAND OVER CONTROL.

This may be a bigger problem than is generally realised.   You will note that two of the Puchacz fatals, both double fatalities, were almost certainly due to this.

There have been other such accidents.

There was a fatal accident to a K13, where the pupil held the stick forward and the instructor was unable to regain control.   I do not have the date or reference, I know the instructor but have never talked of it with him.

There was a similar accident in the USA, which I discovered by chance (I have not done any kind of search of the NTSB records): 88.10.29 - LAX89LA027 - http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X27100&key=1 Let L-13 Blanik – Flight controls restricted by passenger – One killed.

There was a similar accident at the London Gliding Club, Dunstable.   I know the instructor (who was one of the professionals) and first heard about the accident from him, he thought he was about to die but they both got away with minor injuries.   29th April 1988, 43/88, brief narrative: “The visiting solo pilot was being checked out to fly a club glider but his flying was of a poor standard and P1 arranged cable break practice.   On the first at 500ft the stick was violently pushed forward.   On the second, at 50ft, P2 banged the stick onto the back stop and P1 could not move it.   The glider fell to the ground after a hammer head stall.”

IS THE PUCHACZ DANGEROUS?

1./   You will not have spinning accidents in a glider that will not spin.   The K21 will certainly spin if the C. of G. is far enough back, but as normally loaded it is very unlikely to spin.   The Puchacz will I understand spin at any legal C. of G. position.

Can you teach a pupil properly in a glider that will not spin?   This is why some sites, e.g. Lasham, and Bristol & Gloucester at Nympsfield still insist on using the K13, when they might have been expected to "modernise" by using the K21.

But the Puchacz will not forgive poor handling, and an inadvertent stall will almost certainly result in a sharp pitch down and a spin entry.

A great many modern, single seat, types depart even more sharply and with considerably less warning.   It would be interesting to look at the fatal and serious injury spin-ins in single seaters and see what types were used in their training.   It would be nice to know if training in two seaters that spin readily does provide extra protection against single seat spin accidents, or not?

Additionally there is a certain type of pilot, including some instructors, who may be “spin happy” and spin more and lower than they should, though I don’t know of any accidents in this category except perhaps 1990/08/04 114/90 above.

2./   If the pupil holds the stick back and prevents the instructor taking control perhaps you have less chance in the Puchacz than in most gliders.

3./   Some gliders protect their pilots in a crash better than others.   For instance if you are going to crash a standard class glider choose an ASW24 or ASW28, not an LS8.

I suspect the Puchacz is rather poor in this respect, and not as good as an ASK21, K13 or DG500.   I suspect that my friend in the ASK21, 29th April 1988 43/88 above, would not have got away so lightly in a Puchacz, it would have pitched down harder and given much less protection.

DISCLAIMER.

Nothing I say is in any way official.   I am not, and never have been any part of the BGA hierarchy; I have never been part of or associated with the Instructor or Safety committees or involved with accident investigation.   I have been in U.K. gliding for over 40 years, and instructing for about half of that; and I have been a member of several clubs so I have quite a wide acquaintanceship.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Harry Medlicott
Sent: Sunday, 12 December 2004 11:38 AM
To: aus Soaring
Subject: [Aus-soaring] my last word

Hi All,

As the one who started the debate on the Puchaz and its safe? handling qualities, may I say it has been very disappointing to read some of the repsonses by Puchaz jockeys.

To summarise,

No one has questioned that:-

(a) The world wide statistics show the Puchaz has been involved in a disproportionately high number of spin related accidents, mostly fatal and that in many cases there has been an experienced pilot on board.

(b) The glider can easily enter a spin in most C of G positions and that recovery takes precise recovery action compared with other well known trainers in which it can be difficult to achieve spin entry and in many cases just letting the controls go will result in a properly trimmed glider regaining unstalled flight.

(c) All pilots should be competent and current in recognising and recovering from stalls, incipient spins and fully developed spins. These skills can only be taught and regularly validated in a two seater glider flying with an experienced pilot.

There are two conclusions. Firstly the need for those operating a Puchaz to set extremely cautious standards, such as considering increasing the minimum cockpit loads to ensure a well forward C.of G. and stipulating high minimum heights for spin training exercises. Secondly, maybe the Puchaz can be improved. Quite some years ago the undersirable habit of a Cirrus to unexpectantly enter a spin was ameliorated by modifying the wingtips with washout. Puchaz owners should be leading this push through the GFA.

My third personal conclusion is that any club which imports a Puchaz until these problems are resolved has rocks in the head. 

Harry Medlicott

A very well reasoned summary was posted on the internet early this year by the CFI of the Edmonton club in Canada. It follows.

I've recently heard of yet another double fatality (?), in the UK, which occured perhaps some four or five weeks ago. Whether this is the 23rd on your list, I don't know. I don't have the precise date and have been given few details, but a Puchacz was apparently conducting routine spinning exercises with a near solo student on board and an experienced instructor in charge. After completing two separate planned spins with normal recovery, the glider was supposedly seen to spin again and continue rotating until impact. I understand that the UK authorities are still investigating the cause but if you, or anyone else has any further info on this particular accident I would like to hear from them.

My club operates a Puchacz, and up to now we've not experienced any untoward spin recovery problems provided we properly manage cockpit weight and balance, and apply full and timely spin recovery action. It has already been well documented over the years, that this glider type can, under certain circumstances, be difficult to get under control fairly quickly if flown with a bias toward an aft C of G. (The earlier Bocian had a pretty chequered career in this respect too!) If not under control within a couple of turns, it is likely that the spin might start to go flat.

Our instructors are fully aware that it may require full stick forward (against the stops), and maybe to go beyond the vertical during recovery for a split second before lateral damping is fully restored. Considerable height can be lost during some recoveries, and it's good policy to observe safety heights. Full rudder in opposition to the turn does nothing on it's own. The wings must be unstalled. Sit there with the stick in the middle and do what you like with the rudder, and mostly there'll be no inclination to recover what so ever. Stay like that and apply full in-spin aileron and you're in for a real ride! Even with some heavy weights flying in the front cockpit we've noticed that delay in taking proper recovery action can sometimes produce some nasty moments when the expected unstall and acceleration refuses to take place promptly. It's not uncommon to have to quickly repeat the full recovery action, and get the desired effects second time around. Do that below 2000 feet and you can soon be in a sweat!

There are many and varied opinions on Puchacz spin entry and recovery techniques. None the less, the Puchacz has killed many to date, around the world, and sadly the trend is likely to continue. It is to be hoped that the CAA and BGA can quickly shed light on this recent accident. Hopefully the resulting info will be made available to the global gliding community without delay.

That another two lives have been lost is very saddening indeed, and in a Puchacz again, makes me all the more concerned! This might make all operators of this type feel that perhaps there's something, somewhere, about this glider that still requires greater in depth investigation and explanation. Let's hope we get an answer soon. Although there are other gliders with equally notorious handling features, and some with very dubious aerodynamic qualities, it's still very necessary to remember that all gliders, and especially the Puch need treating with proper respect.

CFI Edmonton Soaring Club.

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